| [Head banger] Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:28:23 AM | |
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the part I have the hardest time with is separating the band and the lable. for say rockarolla thats easy, the band is gone from it. but normaly its not that way
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Budred from Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:11:09 AM)| |  | Budred wrote: | | OK but the thing is, I never said I owned the rights and I didn't say his logic was (legally correct), I said I was trying to find
fault with his logic and couldn"t. As far as stealing music goes I could care less who approves or disapproves. The recording
industry is full of millionaires who got that way by overcharging the masses for their product and now I have a chance to get
some of that back, fuck yeah I'm going to. Also, I do still support bands that I like. I still buy cd's and I still go to concerts, so
it's not like I steal everything with no give back. I also made the same argument about (borrowing) as you did. Sometimes
downloading does lead to future sales. I downloaded every MRH except one called M3 and now own every disc.(bought)
| | | Head banger wrote: | | every concert I have ever been to prohibits recording. well except the privatly heald one in a field by a garage band that managed once to get a gig in a bar. well, no at one metalica show they sold special tickets for recording, audio and video in a pit. they did say you cant sell those. probably didnt care if they were traded. but any priest boots I have were recorded ilegaly.
DC, BUD no, you dont own the worldwide rights, you own the right to have your copy. Now if you lend it to a friend to listen to, whatever, its probably ilegal, certainly not enforcable and I wouldnt view it as wrong. now if you and a friend agree to give each other a copy of every CD, and come up with a strategy to only buy one CD between the 2 of you (or 10 or thousands like the FTP services) well thats wrong. but a loan. I lent out metolagy to a kid I know. he bought the whole priest colection that he could find. that helped the band.
DF, if this gets any higher brow, you may have to pluck your brows to stop them mixing with your hairline
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Shouldn't you be off playing some gig (where a kid can certainly record you and give as gifts unless strictly prohibited by band or venue)? LOL!!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | I just love "high brow" conversations!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! |
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| [Budred] Saturday, November 17, 2012 11:11:09 AM | |
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OK but the thing is, I never said I owned the rights and I didn't say his logic was (legally correct), I said I was trying to find
fault with his logic and couldn"t. As far as stealing music goes I could care less who approves or disapproves. The recording
industry is full of millionaires who got that way by overcharging the masses for their product and now I have a chance to get
some of that back, fuck yeah I'm going to. Also, I do still support bands that I like. I still buy cd's and I still go to concerts, so
it's not like I steal everything with no give back. I also made the same argument about (borrowing) as you did. Sometimes
downloading does lead to future sales. I downloaded every MRH except one called M3 and now own every disc.(bought)
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:28:38 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | every concert I have ever been to prohibits recording. well except the privatly heald one in a field by a garage band that managed once to get a gig in a bar. well, no at one metalica show they sold special tickets for recording, audio and video in a pit. they did say you cant sell those. probably didnt care if they were traded. but any priest boots I have were recorded ilegaly.
DC, BUD no, you dont own the worldwide rights, you own the right to have your copy. Now if you lend it to a friend to listen to, whatever, its probably ilegal, certainly not enforcable and I wouldnt view it as wrong. now if you and a friend agree to give each other a copy of every CD, and come up with a strategy to only buy one CD between the 2 of you (or 10 or thousands like the FTP services) well thats wrong. but a loan. I lent out metolagy to a kid I know. he bought the whole priest colection that he could find. that helped the band.
DF, if this gets any higher brow, you may have to pluck your brows to stop them mixing with your hairline
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Shouldn't you be off playing some gig (where a kid can certainly record you and give as gifts unless strictly prohibited by band or venue)? LOL!!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | I just love "high brow" conversations!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:40:31 AM | |
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actualy, 2 of my boots were downloaded direct from robhalford.com back in the day. tucson 82 and i forget the other one. now, did rob have permission from the band, or whatever he needed to record them. dont know. not sure if those are legal, but since priest never sold those shows, or the others I traded for i guess it doesnt mater much.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:28:38 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | every concert I have ever been to prohibits recording. well except the privatly heald one in a field by a garage band that managed once to get a gig in a bar. well, no at one metalica show they sold special tickets for recording, audio and video in a pit. they did say you cant sell those. probably didnt care if they were traded. but any priest boots I have were recorded ilegaly.
DC, BUD no, you dont own the worldwide rights, you own the right to have your copy. Now if you lend it to a friend to listen to, whatever, its probably ilegal, certainly not enforcable and I wouldnt view it as wrong. now if you and a friend agree to give each other a copy of every CD, and come up with a strategy to only buy one CD between the 2 of you (or 10 or thousands like the FTP services) well thats wrong. but a loan. I lent out metolagy to a kid I know. he bought the whole priest colection that he could find. that helped the band.
DF, if this gets any higher brow, you may have to pluck your brows to stop them mixing with your hairline
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Shouldn't you be off playing some gig (where a kid can certainly record you and give as gifts unless strictly prohibited by band or venue)? LOL!!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | I just love "high brow" conversations!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, November 17, 2012 6:28:38 AM | |
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every concert I have ever been to prohibits recording. well except the privatly heald one in a field by a garage band that managed once to get a gig in a bar. well, no at one metalica show they sold special tickets for recording, audio and video in a pit. they did say you cant sell those. probably didnt care if they were traded. but any priest boots I have were recorded ilegaly.
DC, BUD no, you dont own the worldwide rights, you own the right to have your copy. Now if you lend it to a friend to listen to, whatever, its probably ilegal, certainly not enforcable and I wouldnt view it as wrong. now if you and a friend agree to give each other a copy of every CD, and come up with a strategy to only buy one CD between the 2 of you (or 10 or thousands like the FTP services) well thats wrong. but a loan. I lent out metolagy to a kid I know. he bought the whole priest colection that he could find. that helped the band.
DF, if this gets any higher brow, you may have to pluck your brows to stop them mixing with your hairline
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, November 16, 2012 9:47:52 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Shouldn't you be off playing some gig (where a kid can certainly record you and give as gifts unless strictly prohibited by band or venue)? LOL!!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | I just love "high brow" conversations!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! |
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| [guidogodoy] Friday, November 16, 2012 9:47:52 PM | |
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Shouldn't you be off playing some gig (where a kid can certainly record you and give as gifts unless strictly prohibited by band or venue)? LOL!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Friday, November 16, 2012 8:46:23 PM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | | I just love "high brow" conversations!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! |
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| [Deep Freeze] Friday, November 16, 2012 8:46:23 PM | |
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| I just love "high brow" conversations!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! |
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| [guidogodoy] Friday, November 16, 2012 6:42:39 PM | |
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No. Technically you are not the complete "owner" of it. You do not own the intellectual property rights nor copyright to it. You basically bought a license for private, personal use. It is not "yours" to give as a gift.
Nice theory, though. You best read up on RIAA law while you can. I don't think you'll be able to access a computer once they finish with you. www.riaa.com/physicalpiracy.php
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by DemonCat from Friday, November 16, 2012 11:39:08 AM)| | | DemonCat wrote: | | My response to the anti-piracy warning issued by the FBI is this: I bought the cd, dvd etc. I'm the owner of it and all content on it. I therefore "authorize" myself to be able to share it with the world. I do so as a "gift".
(Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, November 16, 2012 12:03:48 AM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Ok, then. Despite the huge "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishible under federal law" that is stamped on the back of a cd by the Federal Bureau of Investigation / Department of Justice" you still think it is legal? Do you think the same of a DVD that you copy? How about a book? Would you lump them into the same category as a CD? Don't they, like the electric company, have fixed costs (machinery) plus static costs of distribution, artwork, etc., plus more dynamic costs such as Big Box store discounts, printing, etc.? While I am glad to hear that you paid for SFV, to be honest, your argument makes no sense to me.
Do you think that the production costs of making a DVD, video game, computer OS/software or music are so different? Sure, some cost more, some cost less. Moral is that they all COST. Would you steal a CD from a store? I hope not (at your age...we ignore what we did when we were younger...heh). What possible difference could you make between going into a store and stealing a CD vs. downloading an illegal copy? It is easier?! How about that DVD question. I have been in many a city were you can buy perfect pirate copies on the street. While I can buy it for pennies, is it right? Upstairs I have a couple of Rolex watches I bought in Brazil for about $10USD. Those are certainly fakes but it is a tangible good that someone (typically poor) took time to construct. I would never be able to afford (or want) a Rolex in any case. However, did I steal from Rolex because I bought a knock-off? No. I'd never EVER buy one. Downloading a CD, though, hits closer to home. Rolex won't go out of business because I bought a fake watch. A certain band might not be able to pay bills if their cds don't sell. Pay to support your favorite bands, is my point. The Justin B. / boyband machine will roll us otherwise.
Parting thought? When you "import" a store-bought CD to your harddrive using Media Player you are probably importing in WMV format. Lossy, IOW. No matter. If you legally own the recording, you are fine. The people who download without ever having once paid for the music are both engaging in illegal activities as well as damaging the genre of music we love. Low sales and those bands will go to no-name labels and then disappear. Bieber effect. Pop sells. Metal doesn't.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
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Head banger wrote: |
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the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
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Head banger wrote: |
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See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
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Head banger wrote: |
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I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 12:06:35 AM |
Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:43:18 AM |
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| [Brian_Evans] Friday, November 16, 2012 1:46:37 PM | |
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Right on man, peer-to- peer file sharing.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by DemonCat from Friday, November 16, 2012 11:39:08 AM)| | | DemonCat wrote: | | My response to the anti-piracy warning issued by the FBI is this: I bought the cd, dvd etc. I'm the owner of it and all content on it. I therefore "authorize" myself to be able to share it with the world. I do so as a "gift".
(Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, November 16, 2012 12:03:48 AM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Ok, then. Despite the huge "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishible under federal law" that is stamped on the back of a cd by the Federal Bureau of Investigation / Department of Justice" you still think it is legal? Do you think the same of a DVD that you copy? How about a book? Would you lump them into the same category as a CD? Don't they, like the electric company, have fixed costs (machinery) plus static costs of distribution, artwork, etc., plus more dynamic costs such as Big Box store discounts, printing, etc.? While I am glad to hear that you paid for SFV, to be honest, your argument makes no sense to me.
Do you think that the production costs of making a DVD, video game, computer OS/software or music are so different? Sure, some cost more, some cost less. Moral is that they all COST. Would you steal a CD from a store? I hope not (at your age...we ignore what we did when we were younger...heh). What possible difference could you make between going into a store and stealing a CD vs. downloading an illegal copy? It is easier?! How about that DVD question. I have been in many a city were you can buy perfect pirate copies on the street. While I can buy it for pennies, is it right? Upstairs I have a couple of Rolex watches I bought in Brazil for about $10USD. Those are certainly fakes but it is a tangible good that someone (typically poor) took time to construct. I would never be able to afford (or want) a Rolex in any case. However, did I steal from Rolex because I bought a knock-off? No. I'd never EVER buy one. Downloading a CD, though, hits closer to home. Rolex won't go out of business because I bought a fake watch. A certain band might not be able to pay bills if their cds don't sell. Pay to support your favorite bands, is my point. The Justin B. / boyband machine will roll us otherwise.
Parting thought? When you "import" a store-bought CD to your harddrive using Media Player you are probably importing in WMV format. Lossy, IOW. No matter. If you legally own the recording, you are fine. The people who download without ever having once paid for the music are both engaging in illegal activities as well as damaging the genre of music we love. Low sales and those bands will go to no-name labels and then disappear. Bieber effect. Pop sells. Metal doesn't.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
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Head banger wrote: |
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the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
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Head banger wrote: |
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See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
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Head banger wrote: |
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I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 12:06:35 AM |
Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:43:18 AM |
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| [Budred] Friday, November 16, 2012 1:34:16 PM | |
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I'm trying to find fault with your logic but I can't. 
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by DemonCat from Friday, November 16, 2012 11:39:08 AM)| | | DemonCat wrote: | | My response to the anti-piracy warning issued by the FBI is this: I bought the cd, dvd etc. I'm the owner of it and all content on it. I therefore "authorize" myself to be able to share it with the world. I do so as a "gift".
(Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, November 16, 2012 12:03:48 AM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Ok, then. Despite the huge "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishible under federal law" that is stamped on the back of a cd by the Federal Bureau of Investigation / Department of Justice" you still think it is legal? Do you think the same of a DVD that you copy? How about a book? Would you lump them into the same category as a CD? Don't they, like the electric company, have fixed costs (machinery) plus static costs of distribution, artwork, etc., plus more dynamic costs such as Big Box store discounts, printing, etc.? While I am glad to hear that you paid for SFV, to be honest, your argument makes no sense to me.
Do you think that the production costs of making a DVD, video game, computer OS/software or music are so different? Sure, some cost more, some cost less. Moral is that they all COST. Would you steal a CD from a store? I hope not (at your age...we ignore what we did when we were younger...heh). What possible difference could you make between going into a store and stealing a CD vs. downloading an illegal copy? It is easier?! How about that DVD question. I have been in many a city were you can buy perfect pirate copies on the street. While I can buy it for pennies, is it right? Upstairs I have a couple of Rolex watches I bought in Brazil for about $10USD. Those are certainly fakes but it is a tangible good that someone (typically poor) took time to construct. I would never be able to afford (or want) a Rolex in any case. However, did I steal from Rolex because I bought a knock-off? No. I'd never EVER buy one. Downloading a CD, though, hits closer to home. Rolex won't go out of business because I bought a fake watch. A certain band might not be able to pay bills if their cds don't sell. Pay to support your favorite bands, is my point. The Justin B. / boyband machine will roll us otherwise.
Parting thought? When you "import" a store-bought CD to your harddrive using Media Player you are probably importing in WMV format. Lossy, IOW. No matter. If you legally own the recording, you are fine. The people who download without ever having once paid for the music are both engaging in illegal activities as well as damaging the genre of music we love. Low sales and those bands will go to no-name labels and then disappear. Bieber effect. Pop sells. Metal doesn't.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
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Head banger wrote: |
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the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
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Head banger wrote: |
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See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
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Head banger wrote: |
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I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 12:06:35 AM |
Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:43:18 AM |
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| [DemonCat] Friday, November 16, 2012 11:39:08 AM | |
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My response to the anti-piracy warning issued by the FBI is this: I bought the cd, dvd etc. I'm the owner of it and all content on it. I therefore "authorize" myself to be able to share it with the world. I do so as a "gift".
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, November 16, 2012 12:03:48 AM)
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guidogodoy wrote: |
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Ok, then. Despite the huge "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishible under federal law" that is stamped on the back of a cd by the Federal Bureau of Investigation / Department of Justice" you still think it is legal? Do you think the same of a DVD that you copy? How about a book? Would you lump them into the same category as a CD? Don't they, like the electric company, have fixed costs (machinery) plus static costs of distribution, artwork, etc., plus more dynamic costs such as Big Box store discounts, printing, etc.? While I am glad to hear that you paid for SFV, to be honest, your argument makes no sense to me.
Do you think that the production costs of making a DVD, video game, computer OS/software or music are so different? Sure, some cost more, some cost less. Moral is that they all COST. Would you steal a CD from a store? I hope not (at your age...we ignore what we did when we were younger...heh). What possible difference could you make between going into a store and stealing a CD vs. downloading an illegal copy? It is easier?! How about that DVD question. I have been in many a city were you can buy perfect pirate copies on the street. While I can buy it for pennies, is it right? Upstairs I have a couple of Rolex watches I bought in Brazil for about $10USD. Those are certainly fakes but it is a tangible good that someone (typically poor) took time to construct. I would never be able to afford (or want) a Rolex in any case. However, did I steal from Rolex because I bought a knock-off? No. I'd never EVER buy one. Downloading a CD, though, hits closer to home. Rolex won't go out of business because I bought a fake watch. A certain band might not be able to pay bills if their cds don't sell. Pay to support your favorite bands, is my point. The Justin B. / boyband machine will roll us otherwise.
Parting thought? When you "import" a store-bought CD to your harddrive using Media Player you are probably importing in WMV format. Lossy, IOW. No matter. If you legally own the recording, you are fine. The people who download without ever having once paid for the music are both engaging in illegal activities as well as damaging the genre of music we love. Low sales and those bands will go to no-name labels and then disappear. Bieber effect. Pop sells. Metal doesn't.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
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lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
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guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
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Head banger wrote: |
| |
See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
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Head banger wrote: |
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I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
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|
guidogodoy wrote: |
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First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
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Head banger wrote: |
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Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 12:06:35 AM |
Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 11:43:18 AM |
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| [Head banger] Friday, November 16, 2012 8:07:59 AM | |
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IOW? yes its lossy. I have crappy speakers and listen at work, so its not at "real metal volume"
and yes, lets ignore what we did when we were 12. those god awefull tapes made by holding a tape recorder beside the record player.....
and way back at the begining I said, if you paid for it once. so, I have rocka rolla on cassete. now I have no desire to own it on CD. if I want to hear one song, youtube is there for that one time. but to me, I paid for RR. the band got paid, sony or whoever produced it got paid, gull mostly got paid. maybe thats a bad example. still its the reality.
if I wanted to buy a book, then manage to scan it onto my computer (asside from needing my head examined) I dont see an issue. same with the DVD. if I get it from the library or the video rental place, then yep, its an issue.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Friday, November 16, 2012 12:03:48 AM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Ok, then. Despite the huge "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishible under federal law" that is stamped on the back of a cd by the Federal Bureau of Investigation / Department of Justice" you still think it is legal? Do you think the same of a DVD that you copy? How about a book? Would you lump them into the same category as a CD? Don't they, like the electric company, have fixed costs (machinery) plus static costs of distribution, artwork, etc., plus more dynamic costs such as Big Box store discounts, printing, etc.? While I am glad to hear that you paid for SFV, to be honest, your argument makes no sense to me.
Do you think that the production costs of making a DVD, video game, computer OS/software or music are so different? Sure, some cost more, some cost less. Moral is that they all COST. Would you steal a CD from a store? I hope not (at your age...we ignore what we did when we were younger...heh). What possible difference could you make between going into a store and stealing a CD vs. downloading an illegal copy? It is easier?! How about that DVD question. I have been in many a city were you can buy perfect pirate copies on the street. While I can buy it for pennies, is it right? Upstairs I have a couple of Rolex watches I bought in Brazil for about $10USD. Those are certainly fakes but it is a tangible good that someone (typically poor) took time to construct. I would never be able to afford (or want) a Rolex in any case. However, did I steal from Rolex because I bought a knock-off? No. I'd never EVER buy one. Downloading a CD, though, hits closer to home. Rolex won't go out of business because I bought a fake watch. A certain band might not be able to pay bills if their cds don't sell. Pay to support your favorite bands, is my point. The Justin B. / boyband machine will roll us otherwise.
Parting thought? When you "import" a store-bought CD to your harddrive using Media Player you are probably importing in WMV format. Lossy, IOW. No matter. If you legally own the recording, you are fine. The people who download without ever having once paid for the music are both engaging in illegal activities as well as damaging the genre of music we love. Low sales and those bands will go to no-name labels and then disappear. Bieber effect. Pop sells. Metal doesn't.
(Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM)
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Head banger wrote: |
| |
lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
| |
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guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
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|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 12:06:35 AM |
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| [Budred] Friday, November 16, 2012 1:10:07 AM | |
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I don't have anyone on ignore. I won't do that.
I ignore you when you try to entice me into a back and forth by not responding.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Brian_Evans from Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:23:11 PM)| | | Brian_Evans wrote: | | Wow ..didn't realize you had me on ignore ..oh well. One last thing, just ignore that guy about downloading ...he's just on a kick.
| | | Budred wrote: | | Brian, I ignore everything you say to me because I don't want any more back and forths with people here
and I still feel like I did you wrong in the beginning. If you wouldn't see "Pumpkinhead" even if they paid you that's your right.
| | | Brian_Evans wrote: | | I wouldn't go see "pumkinhead" if they paid me $200.00... no offense Bud.
well...I guess I would for $300
Edited at: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:20:54 AM |
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| [guidogodoy] Friday, November 16, 2012 12:03:48 AM | |
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Ok, then. Despite the huge "FBI Anti-Piracy Warning: Unauthorized copying is punishible under federal law" that is stamped on the back of a cd by the Federal Bureau of Investigation / Department of Justice" you still think it is legal? Do you think the same of a DVD that you copy? How about a book? Would you lump them into the same category as a CD? Don't they, like the electric company, have fixed costs (machinery) plus static costs of distribution, artwork, etc., plus more dynamic costs such as Big Box store discounts, printing, etc.? While I am glad to hear that you paid for SFV, to be honest, your argument makes no sense to me.
Do you think that the production costs of making a DVD, video game, computer OS/software or music are so different? Sure, some cost more, some cost less. Moral is that they all COST. Would you steal a CD from a store? I hope not (at your age...we ignore what we did when we were younger...heh). What possible difference could you make between going into a store and stealing a CD vs. downloading an illegal copy? It is easier?! How about that DVD question. I have been in many a city were you can buy perfect pirate copies on the street. While I can buy it for pennies, is it right? Upstairs I have a couple of Rolex watches I bought in Brazil for about $10USD. Those are certainly fakes but it is a tangible good that someone (typically poor) took time to construct. I would never be able to afford (or want) a Rolex in any case. However, did I steal from Rolex because I bought a knock-off? No. I'd never EVER buy one. Downloading a CD, though, hits closer to home. Rolex won't go out of business because I bought a fake watch. A certain band might not be able to pay bills if their cds don't sell. Pay to support your favorite bands, is my point. The Justin B. / boyband machine will roll us otherwise.
Parting thought? When you "import" a store-bought CD to your harddrive using Media Player you are probably importing in WMV format. Lossy, IOW. No matter. If you legally own the recording, you are fine. The people who download without ever having once paid for the music are both engaging in illegal activities as well as damaging the genre of music we love. Low sales and those bands will go to no-name labels and then disappear. Bieber effect. Pop sells. Metal doesn't.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM)
| |
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Head banger wrote: |
| |
lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| |
|
guidogodoy wrote: |
| |
First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| |
|
Head banger wrote: |
| |
Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
|
|
|
|
|
|
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|
Edited at: Friday, November 16, 2012 12:06:35 AM |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, November 15, 2012 11:01:41 PM | |
|
lets leave taxes out, because the government does very little with my money except fuck it all up. your government has a similar record
but your arguments dont make sense to me.
The electric company has 3 costs.
1. the wires to my house
2. the generating plant
3. the maintenance, fuel etc.
then I supose they have administration, managers, envelopes postage, dividends, etc
the first 2 you said are paid for, but they are amortized over a number of years. the third is going to vary.
now on my bill, its actualy laid out this way, and its 3 companies, one to generate, one to transmit, and a third bills it all out.
compare that to say the 30th aniversary release of screaming, which I just bought.
the band recorded this 30 years ago. minimal if any time spent touching it up. the record company has some costs to print, market and distribute the disk. Note I said I purchased the disk. I did download Jugulator a while ago. lost my original.
oh, and the copy protection, I have had one disc in over 10 years that windows media doesnt rip to the hard drive. I dont do anything to defeat it.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:10:07 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
| | | Head banger wrote: | | the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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| [Brian_Evans] Thursday, November 15, 2012 5:23:11 PM | |
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Wow ..didn't realize you had me on ignore ..oh well. One last thing, just ignore that guy about downloading ...he's just on a kick.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Budred from Monday, November 12, 2012 2:30:55 PM)| | | Budred wrote: | | Brian, I ignore everything you say to me because I don't want any more back and forths with people here
and I still feel like I did you wrong in the beginning. If you wouldn't see "Pumpkinhead" even if they paid you that's your right.
| | | Brian_Evans wrote: | | I wouldn't go see "pumkinhead" if they paid me $200.00...no offense Bud.
well...I guess I would for $300
Edited at: Monday, November 12, 2012 11:20:54 AM |
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| [guidogodoy] Wednesday, November 14, 2012 11:10:07 PM | |
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Following that logic, why would you pay your bills? Someone mows your lawn or, even better, the electric company that has already run lines to your house has very little actual expense. Don't pay them and it is just their lost revinue. Taxes, What does paying them get you? Will the government collapse if you don't pay? Of course not. Then again, you are speaking more of goods vs. services as all are examples of lost revinue.
Is a CD a good or a service? I think most would argue it is a good. Did people work long hours to produce it? Yes. You just don't see it like you do the person who cuts your lawn. Did people spend a lot of time, effort and talent to produce a CD? Certainly more than the guy that cuts lawns for a living. You just don't know them personally.
So, don't pay your electric bil or your taxes. After all, it is just a matter of lost revinue, isn't it?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:00:59 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, November 14, 2012 10:00:59 PM | |
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the difference is, someone would have an expense to give me a new ring or car. insurance, some rich dude, whatever. here there is no cost (lost revenue isnt the same)
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:42:11 AM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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| [guidogodoy] Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:42:11 AM | |
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You are right about the first point but only to a degree. There is encryption on most CDs/DVDs/BRs. You an legally make a backup in most countries (provided you own the original) but it is illegal to circumvent the protection! Goofy.
Now your second point. Lost the disc. Well, extrapolate. What if you lost your big, hunkin' diamond pinky ring. You expect to get a new one? Same argument, no? "Hey, I once owned an old Honda Accord but it was stolen. Give me a new one! What? Don't make the same model? Well, I deserve the new model! After all, I paid for it once, right?"
YOU explain the difference.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:24:37 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, November 14, 2012 8:24:37 AM | |
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See to me, I disagree on the moral bit.
if I bought the album, and my laptop has no CD drive its ok for me to download a copy right? if I lost the disc whats the difference?
now the first album I downloaded was fight mutations, and Rob had a free download of it on his site. I dont download much, although our library card now offers 3 free downloads a week from I think sony. havent done that yet.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Monday, November 12, 2012 11:33:00 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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| [guidogodoy] Monday, November 12, 2012 11:33:00 PM | |
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Yes. It is illegal to download there but it is an odd law. DMCA (American) laws are fighting CRIA (Canadian) laws in Canada. For a while it was legal to download for non-profit but, as it was mostly American music, DMCA wouldn't let go. Look up what happened to "Demonoid." World-wide, they are using US laws to try to go after foreign countries to turn over illegal downloaders and, specifically, uploaders.
Here they are now sending letters through the ISPs about illegal download activities. Especially to the dumb ones that don't know how to hide their IP. Some companies (such as Comcast) gives you a 3 fouls and disconnect sort of letter. In a clandestine move, the US govt is now going after foreign countries using this law as its bullog.
YOUR question is easier. Downloading copyrighted materials is always morally wrong. Uploading will get you caught more than downloading.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, November 12, 2012 11:03:37 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | I didnt think that it was ilegal to download here. but I doubt I would be fined or prosecuted. was thinking more about right and wrong than the law though.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | First answer (varies from country to country) is "yes." In your country if you do not own a physical version (LP, cassette or legally downloaded version) of the item in question then it is illegal and you'll open yourself up to fines and possible jail time (though the latter is unlikely). It would be tried by the feds who would use the "prove you didn't sell it" tactic.
Out of print works the same as books. The fact that it isn't in print doesn't mean it isn't under copyright. Just ask Amazon. Copyright does expire but they are also moving to change that number of years IMO for monitary gain.
Pick up the latest Wired magazine and/or read one of the best current authors on the subject, Quinn Norton. She writes for both Wired and MaximumPC magazines. Her main focus is legal journalism for the digital age.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | Just wondering. If you buy an album, lose the disc, then would it still be wrong to download? what about something out of print?
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