| [spapad] Monday, June 08, 2009 9:13:43 PM | |
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Well put Hellrider. It is not a simple matter.
Don't look at me as if I didn't know
Your vanity is all you ever show
What you believe and advocate
Fanatic dogma recycled from yesterday
Got a master plan
Genocide
Can't understand
People of the lie
You are to me the waste of flesh and blood
I'd love to see you buried in the mud
And when you die no one will shed a tear
So pass me by don't need your hatred here
Got a master plan
Genocide
Can't understand
People of the lie
Prejudice, intolerance, eye for an eye[SOLO - FRANK]You cannot hide behind those empty claims
Your racist pride is nothing but a game
And you will lose for right is on the side
Of those who choose to fight for humankind
Got a master plan
Genocide
Can't understand
People of the lie
You can't believe
Don't be deceived
Edited at: Monday, June 08, 2009 9:14:00 PM |
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| [hellrider 31038] Monday, June 08, 2009 9:07:19 PM | |
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| [spapad] Monday, June 08, 2009 9:00:42 PM | |
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Sounds good.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:49:09 PM)| |  | ronhartsell wrote: | | Just teasing ya...I think I made my point of view pretty clear earlier...kill 'em or let 'em be guinea pig's for medical research...
| | | spapad wrote: | | Playing in one thing, taking lives is another.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Well...(ahem...) you were pretty quick to pick up a whip the other day...
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| [ron h] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:49:09 PM | |
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Just teasing ya...I think I made my point of view pretty clear earlier...kill 'em or let 'em be guinea pig's for medical research...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:45:50 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Playing in one thing, taking lives is another.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Well...(ahem...) you were pretty quick to pick up a whip the other day...
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| [spapad] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:45:50 PM | |
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Playing in one thing, taking lives is another.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:44:27 PM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Well...(ahem...) you were pretty quick to pick up a whip the other day...
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| [ron h] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:44:27 PM | |
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Well...(ahem...) you were pretty quick to pick up a whip the other day...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:38:24 PM) |
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| [spapad] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:41:38 PM | |
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No, I don't remember, but it seems barbaric to do the same in the name of the state. But, some of the worst offenders really deserve that and more. Should be a line you can get up to before that law comes into play. Once tried by a jury of your peers if they find what you did so reprehensabile, then it seems fair.
Ron, I would never be a judge and would hope I am never called to jury duty, because I would never want to make such decisions.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:37:52 PM)| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | Yes , they are going to put acid in his eyes,, Do you remember what country that was IN???? I saw it on a 20/20 show or dateline, or 48 hours it was a while ago,,,
| | | spapad wrote: | | What he did, he did intensionally, but I think he should have acid thrown in his face same as his victim.
| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | I think there is a country that does that... I dont which one.. there was a woman who had acid thrown in her face, and she went blind. the guy was sent- to blindness .. they are going to put him to sleep and take his vision away.
He will be blind for the rest of his life.. Just like his victum..
| | | spapad wrote: | | | Hamurabi's law. The first law. Eye for and eye, we all know it. Bet crime would go way down if that law was brought back. But, perhaps too extreme? |
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| [ron h] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:38:24 PM | |
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lol...I'm glad you're not my judge...lol
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:35:35 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | What he did, he did intensionally, but I think he should have acid thrown in his face same as his victim.
| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | I think there is a country that does that... I dont which one.. there was a woman who had acid thrown in her face, and she went blind. the guy was sent- to blindness .. they are going to put him to sleep and take his vision away.
He will be blind for the rest of his life.. Just like his victum..
| | | spapad wrote: | | | Hamurabi's law. The first law. Eye for and eye, we all know it. Bet crime would go way down if that law was brought back. But, perhaps too extreme? |
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| [~ MG_Metalgoddess~] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:37:52 PM | |
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Yes , they are going to put acid in his eyes,, Do you remember what country that was IN???? I saw it on a 20/20 show or dateline, or 48 hours it was a while ago,,,
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:35:35 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | What he did, he did intensionally, but I think he should have acid thrown in his face same as his victim.
| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | I think there is a country that does that... I dont which one.. there was a woman who had acid thrown in her face, and she went blind. the guy was sent- to blindness .. they are going to put him to sleep and take his vision away.
He will be blind for the rest of his life.. Just like his victum..
| | | spapad wrote: | | | Hamurabi's law. The first law. Eye for and eye, we all know it. Bet crime would go way down if that law was brought back. But, perhaps too extreme? |
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| [spapad] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:35:35 PM | |
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What he did, he did intensionally, but I think he should have acid thrown in his face same as his victim.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:28:58 PM)| | | ~ MG_Metalgoddess~ wrote: | | I think there is a country that does that... I dont which one.. there was a woman who had acid thrown in her face, and she went blind. the guy was sent- to blindness .. they are going to put him to sleep and take his vision away.
He will be blind for the rest of his life.. Just like his victum..
| | | spapad wrote: | | | Hamurabi's law. The first law. Eye for and eye, we all know it. Bet crime would go way down if that law was brought back. But, perhaps too extreme? |
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| [~ MG_Metalgoddess~] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:29:42 PM | |
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I was going to say that but I held out....
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:27:23 PM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Even more in the name of religion...
| | | Dime/UNDER BLOOD RED SKIES!!!! wrote: | | Crime is caused by currency. If we could move past currency i think crime would fall dramatically. Think of all the crimes that revolve around money.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Depends on the motive, I guess. Like I said, punishment for the sake of punishment doesnt do anything. Hell, we are Europe, we are old... For 1500 years my nation lived here, and in that time we had it all. Inquisuition, torture and executions in hundreds of ways, untold repressions of criminals... And none worked. Thats one of the reasons why nations started to abandon capital punishment. It just doesnt work. You can do anything you like, people will still commit crimes. We can only do our best to keep it as low as possible.
IDK, maybe getting into why people commit crimes and try to do something about that would be a better idea.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no. and cutting of the theifs hand is a bit much also. but if they dont get some punishment they will do it again/
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, plain crimes like shoplifting dont warrant capital punishment, at least imo.
Could be that we are. We always end up in one.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | homicide, yes, but not general crime.
we are NOT going back to capitalism/socialism are we?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Not really. They rank higher then most west European countries, at least by homicide rate.
Sure, work is an honour, and everyone should work, priority given to non-convicts. Now, its a question of how to get work for everyone.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | there is less crime in iran.
you can spend a lot of money to make him work, but given that there are people who want to work that havent killed anyone, that honor (yes work is an honor) should go to them first
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Look, I know that its an imperfect system. What I said is that we shouldnt base punishment on vengeance. I am an atheist, raised by two atheists, and one of the things they taught me is that vengeance is childish.
Thats why I guarantee you that no matter how harsh the punishment is, people will still commit crimes. Look at how harsh punishments are in Iran. Does it mean that they dont have crime? Or how harsh punishments are in your country, and it still has a crime rate way higher than Europe, where punishments are a lot less severe. What this tells is that people wont be intimidated into submission, and that is as it should be.
There is another reason why I touched on the issue of what good does capital punishment do. As I said, you gain nothing from killing a convict. Only a corpse. You can leave him alive and make him work, so at least he can serve of the material part of his debt. Thats not an ideal or an illusion. It can be done, if there is will for it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | No system is perfect Strat, but it's the best we've got...born and raised in a Christian family, I was taught eye for an eye, although that is pretty hard core if followed through to the letter...there has to be punishment, and that punishment should be harsh enough so that others will think twice before commiting such a crime...the day is long gone when most ppl fear Judgement Day...a lot of ppl don't even believe there is a God (or what ever their Diety may be), so we must protect ourselves as a Society...if I hate my ex-wife and decide to kill her because I know I'll be out in 8-10 years, hell, I can do that standing on my head, what's to stop me...that's bunk!! Punishment is to hold a person accountable for their actions as well as keep order, it's two-fold...there are plenty of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to fill our prisons, no shortage in that department...I wish it wouldn't come to this in the first place, but it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world Strat...but it's the best we've got...especially in a country with a Constitutional Right to bear arms...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [~ MG_Metalgoddess~] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:28:58 PM | |
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I think there is a country that does that... I dont which one.. there was a woman who had acid thrown in her face, and she went blind. the guy was sent- to blindness .. they are going to put him to sleep and take his vision away.
He will be blind for the rest of his life.. Just like his victum..
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:26:39 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | | Hamurabi's law. The first law. Eye for and eye, we all know it. Bet crime would go way down if that law was brought back. But, perhaps too extreme? |
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| [ron h] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:27:23 PM | |
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Even more in the name of religion...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Dime/UNDER BLOOD RED SKIES!!!! from Monday, June 08, 2009 8:09:07 PM)| | | Dime/UNDER BLOOD RED SKIES!!!! wrote: | | Crime is caused by currency. If we could move past currency i think crime would fall dramatically. Think of all the crimes that revolve around money.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Depends on the motive, I guess. Like I said, punishment for the sake of punishment doesnt do anything. Hell, we are Europe, we are old... For 1500 years my nation lived here, and in that time we had it all. Inquisuition, torture and executions in hundreds of ways, untold repressions of criminals... And none worked. Thats one of the reasons why nations started to abandon capital punishment. It just doesnt work. You can do anything you like, people will still commit crimes. We can only do our best to keep it as low as possible.
IDK, maybe getting into why people commit crimes and try to do something about that would be a better idea.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no. and cutting of the theifs hand is a bit much also. but if they dont get some punishment they will do it again/
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, plain crimes like shoplifting dont warrant capital punishment, at least imo.
Could be that we are. We always end up in one.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | homicide, yes, but not general crime.
we are NOT going back to capitalism/socialism are we?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Not really. They rank higher then most west European countries, at least by homicide rate.
Sure, work is an honour, and everyone should work, priority given to non-convicts. Now, its a question of how to get work for everyone.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | there is less crime in iran.
you can spend a lot of money to make him work, but given that there are people who want to work that havent killed anyone, that honor (yes work is an honor) should go to them first
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Look, I know that its an imperfect system. What I said is that we shouldnt base punishment on vengeance. I am an atheist, raised by two atheists, and one of the things they taught me is that vengeance is childish.
Thats why I guarantee you that no matter how harsh the punishment is, people will still commit crimes. Look at how harsh punishments are in Iran. Does it mean that they dont have crime? Or how harsh punishments are in your country, and it still has a crime rate way higher than Europe, where punishments are a lot less severe. What this tells is that people wont be intimidated into submission, and that is as it should be.
There is another reason why I touched on the issue of what good does capital punishment do. As I said, you gain nothing from killing a convict. Only a corpse. You can leave him alive and make him work, so at least he can serve of the material part of his debt. Thats not an ideal or an illusion. It can be done, if there is will for it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | No system is perfect Strat, but it's the best we've got...born and raised in a Christian family, I was taught eye for an eye, although that is pretty hard core if followed through to the letter...there has to be punishment, and that punishment should be harsh enough so that others will think twice before commiting such a crime...the day is long gone when most ppl fear Judgement Day...a lot of ppl don't even believe there is a God (or what ever their Diety may be), so we must protect ourselves as a Society...if I hate my ex-wife and decide to kill her because I know I'll be out in 8-10 years, hell, I can do that standing on my head, what's to stop me...that's bunk!! Punishment is to hold a person accountable for their actions as well as keep order, it's two-fold...there are plenty of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to fill our prisons, no shortage in that department...I wish it wouldn't come to this in the first place, but it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world Strat...but it's the best we've got...especially in a country with a Constitutional Right to bear arms...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [spapad] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:26:39 PM | |
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| Hamurabi's law. The first law. Eye for and eye, we all know it. Bet crime would go way down if that law was brought back. But, perhaps too extreme? |
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| [Dime/UNDER BLOOD RED SKIES!!!!] Monday, June 08, 2009 8:09:07 PM | |
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Crime is caused by currency. If we could move past currency i think crime would fall dramatically. Think of all the crimes that revolve around money.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, June 08, 2009 5:00:11 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Depends on the motive, I guess. Like I said, punishment for the sake of punishment doesnt do anything. Hell, we are Europe, we are old... For 1500 years my nation lived here, and in that time we had it all. Inquisuition, torture and executions in hundreds of ways, untold repressions of criminals... And none worked. Thats one of the reasons why nations started to abandon capital punishment. It just doesnt work. You can do anything you like, people will still commit crimes. We can only do our best to keep it as low as possible.
IDK, maybe getting into why people commit crimes and try to do something about that would be a better idea.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no. and cutting of the theifs hand is a bit much also. but if they dont get some punishment they will do it again/
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, plain crimes like shoplifting dont warrant capital punishment, at least imo.
Could be that we are. We always end up in one.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | homicide, yes, but not general crime.
we are NOT going back to capitalism/socialism are we?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Not really. They rank higher then most west European countries, at least by homicide rate.
Sure, work is an honour, and everyone should work, priority given to non-convicts. Now, its a question of how to get work for everyone.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | there is less crime in iran.
you can spend a lot of money to make him work, but given that there are people who want to work that havent killed anyone, that honor (yes work is an honor) should go to them first
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Look, I know that its an imperfect system. What I said is that we shouldnt base punishment on vengeance. I am an atheist, raised by two atheists, and one of the things they taught me is that vengeance is childish.
Thats why I guarantee you that no matter how harsh the punishment is, people will still commit crimes. Look at how harsh punishments are in Iran. Does it mean that they dont have crime? Or how harsh punishments are in your country, and it still has a crime rate way higher than Europe, where punishments are a lot less severe. What this tells is that people wont be intimidated into submission, and that is as it should be.
There is another reason why I touched on the issue of what good does capital punishment do. As I said, you gain nothing from killing a convict. Only a corpse. You can leave him alive and make him work, so at least he can serve of the material part of his debt. Thats not an ideal or an illusion. It can be done, if there is will for it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | No system is perfect Strat, but it's the best we've got...born and raised in a Christian family, I was taught eye for an eye, although that is pretty hard core if followed through to the letter...there has to be punishment, and that punishment should be harsh enough so that others will think twice before commiting such a crime...the day is long gone when most ppl fear Judgement Day...a lot of ppl don't even believe there is a God (or what ever their Diety may be), so we must protect ourselves as a Society...if I hate my ex-wife and decide to kill her because I know I'll be out in 8-10 years, hell, I can do that standing on my head, what's to stop me...that's bunk!! Punishment is to hold a person accountable for their actions as well as keep order, it's two-fold...there are plenty of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to fill our prisons, no shortage in that department...I wish it wouldn't come to this in the first place, but it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world Strat...but it's the best we've got...especially in a country with a Constitutional Right to bear arms...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [ron h] Monday, June 08, 2009 6:42:06 PM | |
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Have you seen the movie Minority Report starring Tom Cruise?? That's what came to mind reading the end of your post...if we could do that, there would be no crime...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, June 08, 2009 5:00:11 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Depends on the motive, I guess. Like I said, punishment for the sake of punishment doesnt do anything. Hell, we are Europe, we are old... For 1500 years my nation lived here, and in that time we had it all. Inquisuition, torture and executions in hundreds of ways, untold repressions of criminals... And none worked. Thats one of the reasons why nations started to abandon capital punishment. It just doesnt work. You can do anything you like, people will still commit crimes. We can only do our best to keep it as low as possible.
IDK, maybe getting into why people commit crimes and try to do something about that would be a better idea.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no. and cutting of the theifs hand is a bit much also. but if they dont get some punishment they will do it again/
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, plain crimes like shoplifting dont warrant capital punishment, at least imo.
Could be that we are. We always end up in one.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | homicide, yes, but not general crime.
we are NOT going back to capitalism/socialism are we?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Not really. They rank higher then most west European countries, at least by homicide rate.
Sure, work is an honour, and everyone should work, priority given to non-convicts. Now, its a question of how to get work for everyone.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | there is less crime in iran.
you can spend a lot of money to make him work, but given that there are people who want to work that havent killed anyone, that honor (yes work is an honor) should go to them first
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Look, I know that its an imperfect system. What I said is that we shouldnt base punishment on vengeance. I am an atheist, raised by two atheists, and one of the things they taught me is that vengeance is childish.
Thats why I guarantee you that no matter how harsh the punishment is, people will still commit crimes. Look at how harsh punishments are in Iran. Does it mean that they dont have crime? Or how harsh punishments are in your country, and it still has a crime rate way higher than Europe, where punishments are a lot less severe. What this tells is that people wont be intimidated into submission, and that is as it should be.
There is another reason why I touched on the issue of what good does capital punishment do. As I said, you gain nothing from killing a convict. Only a corpse. You can leave him alive and make him work, so at least he can serve of the material part of his debt. Thats not an ideal or an illusion. It can be done, if there is will for it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | No system is perfect Strat, but it's the best we've got...born and raised in a Christian family, I was taught eye for an eye, although that is pretty hard core if followed through to the letter...there has to be punishment, and that punishment should be harsh enough so that others will think twice before commiting such a crime...the day is long gone when most ppl fear Judgement Day...a lot of ppl don't even believe there is a God (or what ever their Diety may be), so we must protect ourselves as a Society...if I hate my ex-wife and decide to kill her because I know I'll be out in 8-10 years, hell, I can do that standing on my head, what's to stop me...that's bunk!! Punishment is to hold a person accountable for their actions as well as keep order, it's two-fold...there are plenty of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to fill our prisons, no shortage in that department...I wish it wouldn't come to this in the first place, but it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world Strat...but it's the best we've got...especially in a country with a Constitutional Right to bear arms...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [_strat_] Monday, June 08, 2009 5:00:11 PM | |
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Depends on the motive, I guess. Like I said, punishment for the sake of punishment doesnt do anything. Hell, we are Europe, we are old... For 1500 years my nation lived here, and in that time we had it all. Inquisuition, torture and executions in hundreds of ways, untold repressions of criminals... And none worked. Thats one of the reasons why nations started to abandon capital punishment. It just doesnt work. You can do anything you like, people will still commit crimes. We can only do our best to keep it as low as possible.
IDK, maybe getting into why people commit crimes and try to do something about that would be a better idea.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, June 08, 2009 1:53:59 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | no. and cutting of the theifs hand is a bit much also. but if they dont get some punishment they will do it again/
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, plain crimes like shoplifting dont warrant capital punishment, at least imo.
Could be that we are. We always end up in one.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | homicide, yes, but not general crime.
we are NOT going back to capitalism/socialism are we?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Not really. They rank higher then most west European countries, at least by homicide rate.
Sure, work is an honour, and everyone should work, priority given to non-convicts. Now, its a question of how to get work for everyone.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | there is less crime in iran.
you can spend a lot of money to make him work, but given that there are people who want to work that havent killed anyone, that honor (yes work is an honor) should go to them first
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Look, I know that its an imperfect system. What I said is that we shouldnt base punishment on vengeance. I am an atheist, raised by two atheists, and one of the things they taught me is that vengeance is childish.
Thats why I guarantee you that no matter how harsh the punishment is, people will still commit crimes. Look at how harsh punishments are in Iran. Does it mean that they dont have crime? Or how harsh punishments are in your country, and it still has a crime rate way higher than Europe, where punishments are a lot less severe. What this tells is that people wont be intimidated into submission, and that is as it should be.
There is another reason why I touched on the issue of what good does capital punishment do. As I said, you gain nothing from killing a convict. Only a corpse. You can leave him alive and make him work, so at least he can serve of the material part of his debt. Thats not an ideal or an illusion. It can be done, if there is will for it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | No system is perfect Strat, but it's the best we've got...born and raised in a Christian family, I was taught eye for an eye, although that is pretty hard core if followed through to the letter...there has to be punishment, and that punishment should be harsh enough so that others will think twice before commiting such a crime...the day is long gone when most ppl fear Judgement Day...a lot of ppl don't even believe there is a God (or what ever their Diety may be), so we must protect ourselves as a Society...if I hate my ex-wife and decide to kill her because I know I'll be out in 8-10 years, hell, I can do that standing on my head, what's to stop me...that's bunk!! Punishment is to hold a person accountable for their actions as well as keep order, it's two-fold...there are plenty of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to fill our prisons, no shortage in that department...I wish it wouldn't come to this in the first place, but it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world Strat...but it's the best we've got...especially in a country with a Constitutional Right to bear arms...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [_strat_] Monday, June 08, 2009 4:55:04 PM | |
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Lol... No, no, no!!! Rehabilitation! See what the Germans are doing! Ok... its only for white neo nazis, but notice the social programme at the end! Thats how you treat convicts!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbosdMmX9xc&feature=related
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, June 08, 2009 12:47:59 PM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | How about donating convicted murderers to Science??? Just the thought of that would be a deterrent, eh?? And it would serve humankind in general...guinea pigs, if you will...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Keeping them alive is, imo, a purpose of itself. Getting them to work benefits everyone, including the convicts.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, you proposed economic ideas to keep them alive, I am pointing out that fails. its cheaper to kill them, but thats not the reason. I just think its beter.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Im sorry, but if youre proposing to kill people to save money, Im out of it.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I will take just those few cases, no doubt, no waste of time holding them. it costs over 200 000 a year to hold someone in max security, no way they can do enough work to pay that off, let alone help the victims family.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [Head banger] Monday, June 08, 2009 1:53:59 PM | |
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no. and cutting of the theifs hand is a bit much also. but if they dont get some punishment they will do it again/
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, June 08, 2009 12:47:05 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, plain crimes like shoplifting dont warrant capital punishment, at least imo.
Could be that we are. We always end up in one.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | homicide, yes, but not general crime.
we are NOT going back to capitalism/socialism are we?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Not really. They rank higher then most west European countries, at least by homicide rate.
Sure, work is an honour, and everyone should work, priority given to non-convicts. Now, its a question of how to get work for everyone.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | there is less crime in iran.
you can spend a lot of money to make him work, but given that there are people who want to work that havent killed anyone, that honor (yes work is an honor) should go to them first
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Look, I know that its an imperfect system. What I said is that we shouldnt base punishment on vengeance. I am an atheist, raised by two atheists, and one of the things they taught me is that vengeance is childish.
Thats why I guarantee you that no matter how harsh the punishment is, people will still commit crimes. Look at how harsh punishments are in Iran. Does it mean that they dont have crime? Or how harsh punishments are in your country, and it still has a crime rate way higher than Europe, where punishments are a lot less severe. What this tells is that people wont be intimidated into submission, and that is as it should be.
There is another reason why I touched on the issue of what good does capital punishment do. As I said, you gain nothing from killing a convict. Only a corpse. You can leave him alive and make him work, so at least he can serve of the material part of his debt. Thats not an ideal or an illusion. It can be done, if there is will for it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | No system is perfect Strat, but it's the best we've got...born and raised in a Christian family, I was taught eye for an eye, although that is pretty hard core if followed through to the letter...there has to be punishment, and that punishment should be harsh enough so that others will think twice before commiting such a crime...the day is long gone when most ppl fear Judgement Day...a lot of ppl don't even believe there is a God (or what ever their Diety may be), so we must protect ourselves as a Society...if I hate my ex-wife and decide to kill her because I know I'll be out in 8-10 years, hell, I can do that standing on my head, what's to stop me...that's bunk!! Punishment is to hold a person accountable for their actions as well as keep order, it's two-fold...there are plenty of guilty beyond a reasonable doubt to fill our prisons, no shortage in that department...I wish it wouldn't come to this in the first place, but it's an imperfect system in an imperfect world Strat...but it's the best we've got...especially in a country with a Constitutional Right to bear arms...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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| [Head banger] Monday, June 08, 2009 1:53:00 PM | |
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sounds good to me.
medical research.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, June 08, 2009 12:47:59 PM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | How about donating convicted murderers to Science??? Just the thought of that would be a deterrent, eh?? And it would serve humankind in general...guinea pigs, if you will...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Keeping them alive is, imo, a purpose of itself. Getting them to work benefits everyone, including the convicts.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, you proposed economic ideas to keep them alive, I am pointing out that fails. its cheaper to kill them, but thats not the reason. I just think its beter.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Im sorry, but if youre proposing to kill people to save money, Im out of it.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | I will take just those few cases, no doubt, no waste of time holding them. it costs over 200 000 a year to hold someone in max security, no way they can do enough work to pay that off, let alone help the victims family.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Good afternoon Ron...
Well, the jury and a judge are not fundamentaly right. And if we go to court, there is always the problem of justice... A rich guy can afford a good lawyer that will get him off the hook, no matter what he did. If you are poor, youre screwed. Besides, I was also saying that nobody should have the right to decide wheter somebody should live or die. The murderer took that right, yes. But it doesnt mean that anyone should be legally able to do the same.
If you only take the cases where there is absolutely no doubt... Well, you are not going to have a lot of them.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Good morning Strat...
In my eyes, revenge would be to zip-tie the murderer's hands and leave him in a room with the victim's family for a while...
To appease the public?...it's an issue of the brutal crime with paying for his existence...a cost issue...
In the States, a jury of Peers or a Judge (the defendant has the choice of which) decides a person's guilt and their sentence...
I'm only talking talking of cases where there is absolutely NO DOUBT of their guilt...not the probability of...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Hmm... Well, as I said, I am against capital punishment. Heres why: justice is justice and revenge is revenge. Capital punishment is about revenge, not justice. Sorry, but I dont see how or why should we support the "eye for an eye" logic, and think of ourselves as a modern and at least a remotely tolerant society.
The thing about killing a convict is first of all that it only serves to appease the public. He killed = he was killed. But thats all. Besides that, death penalty doesnt serve anything at all. If you keep him/her in prison for life, and get him to work, then we have something. Maybe put a part of his earnings to the family of the victim? All that fails if you simply strap him on an electric chair, to the amusement of sadistic cop thugs.
That, and I already feel uncomfortable enough knowing that the only armed force in the country is under state control. To have state decide who lives and who dies, hell to have anybody decide that, would be too much.
And there is the issue of certainty. I guess in certain cases it is clear beyond a shadow of a doubt who was the murderer. But in many cases it isnt. A couple of years ago we had a case, where a man was released from prison. He was charged with murder, and already served of some 20 years (I think), when new evidence came to light, and shown that he was innocent. Sure, he lost 20 years in prison, and that is terrible. But, if he was sentenced to death, what then? |
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