| [.] Friday, July 01, 2011 12:37:34 AM | |
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If you consider the topic of this discussion, whether they're sell-outs or a great band, you must factor in that stand taken by Metallica regarding illegal downloading. They've sided with the big labels that have been supportive of them and left those who just wanted free downloads a bit miffed. Who sold out to whom here, anyway?
To me it's irrelevant now because why worry about crap like that? It just ruins the whole magic.
The two times I've seen Metallica, it was awesome. Great metal band!
That they can play and bring the audience to a frenzy is pretty much what I've seen with my own two eyes.
But in the end, Dave Mustaine has won.
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:46:34 PM | |
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Call me stupid but I honestly don't see how "downloading and the internet" factored into any of the arguments presented. From what I read, [.] is arguing both sides of the coin. It caused the downfall of Humanity as we know it by complicating things with "more laws, more lawyers, more hands in the pie" yet they still pack arenas and "deliver" (in YOUR opinion, I assure you). Things were perhaps better with record labels (=marketing) holding all the chips? Uhhhh....Gull and Priest? Come in here, dear boy, have a cigar there Chainsaw Charlie. I don't buy it.
Back on topic. Are Metallica sell-outs? No. They simply suck today. Push the argument back a few decades and I'd argue differently. Legacy, though? Of course, like Maiden, they'll go down as one of the greatest. Sadly, they went down long ago.
Oh yeah, I don't have any use for Pantera either but have always liked Diamond Head. Thanks, to no small degree, to Metallica introducing their music to a wider audience with their covers.
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| [Head banger] Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:02:59 PM | |
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marketing can create popularity in the absence of skill for sure.
and your right, metalica and a lot of bands seemed to lose the passion for the music. frankly when you can come off stage doing a half assed performance, do a line of coke and as many chicks as you want I can see where refining your craft and creating anger and emotion take a back seat.
I still dont have a lot of use for pantera.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by . from Thursday, June 30, 2011 3:56:13 PM)| |  | . wrote: | | Money and mainstream popularity do enter the equation but in less degree than you might think. The marketing aspect exists but that really isn't all because there are more metal/rock bands with real poor marketing than with good marketing. I guess it comes with the territory.
Pantera is a major influence on all kinds of bands from all musical origins. In JP's Jugulator the influence of Pantera is strong. The fact that all sorts of bands either imitate your sound, cover your songs or quote what you say seems a better marker to determine how great you are.
You probably know the earlier recordings of Metallica and shit. See their covers? Those were the bands that influenced them and most were not as popular as ZZTop, Deep Purple or Black Sabbath.
Just the other day I posted a link to a YouTube vid with Diamond Head in this Noticeboard and nobody said a thing.
The only way I can say Metallica are a bunch of sell outs is when they charge to see them and they don't deliver. Their new musical direction in the studio looks like a compass without a North mainly because to create new metal you have to be pissed off at something real bad.
It's hard to be pissed off when the world is at your feet.
Edited at: Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:04:28 PM |
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| [.] Thursday, June 30, 2011 3:56:13 PM | |
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Money and mainstream popularity do enter the equation but in less degree than you might think. The marketing aspect exists but that really isn't all because there are more metal/rock bands with real poor marketing than with good marketing. I guess it comes with the territory.
Pantera is a major influence on all kinds of bands from all musical origins. In JP's Jugulator the influence of Pantera is strong. The fact that all sorts of bands either imitate your sound, cover your songs or quote what you say seems a better marker to determine how great you are.
You probably know the earlier recordings of Metallica and shit. See their covers? Those were the bands that influenced them and most were not as popular as ZZTop, Deep Purple or Black Sabbath.
Just the other day I posted a link to a YouTube vid with Diamond Head in this Noticeboard and nobody said a thing.
The only way I can say Metallica are a bunch of sell outs is when they charge to see them and they don't deliver. Their new musical direction in the studio looks like a compass without a North mainly because to create new metal you have to be pissed off at something real bad.
It's hard to be pissed off when the world is at your feet.
Edited at: Thursday, June 30, 2011 4:04:28 PM |
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| [Budred] Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:38:51 AM | |
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 Mushroomhead
 ...rocks!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Brian_Evans from Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:36:15 AM)
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Brian_Evans wrote: |
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Mushroomhead ...lol!
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jimmyjames wrote: |
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Ok, who are the greatest American metal band ever then? (Don't say Mushroomhead either).
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Budred wrote: |
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I think after the "Black" album they did get a little lazy. There at least didn't seem to be much of an effort to put out
heavy metal records anymore. The "Load" album proved that with garbage like "King Nothing" and "Hero of the Day"
and a number of other shit songs on that one. "Re-Load" was a little better but still not up to par with their early material.
I think these two albums started their slide towards suckdom. Then too much experimentation killed them. They were the
greatest "American" metal band for a period. From "Load" on, not even close.
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jimmyjames wrote: |
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| One of the best metal bands there has ever been. Definately the best American metal band ever. The Black album wasn't sellout and it definately wasn't lazy, they worked hard on that and got a huge sound happening. It's success was based on being the culmination of 10 years hard graft. They had been building momentum all that time. Justice had sold something like two million copies so by the time Black was released metal was being accepted in the mainstream. Black just hit at the right time and took Metallica over the top. After that they just wanted to take it in a different direction and it didn't really work. Load and Reload are fucking great American heavy rock albums though, there's some killer stuff on both of those. The Symphony thing is a bunch of pretentious shit but it's not a sellout, it's actually a risk, again to do something different. St. Anger is an abortion. Probably the worst album by a major act ever. Just crap, and if you watch the Some Kind Of Monster dvd you can see why. Egos and money and fuckwits like Bob Rock and that shrink thinking they were actually in the band was hideous. The whole album was a trainwreck and an embarrassment. Death Magnetic I think is pretty shit as well. They are trying to get their oold heavy sound back but at the same time they are trying to "out heavy" bands like Machine Head and it's not gonna happen. What they need to do is go back to listening to the old British metal albums of the 80s like Maiden and Diamond Head and Venom and Motorhead that they used to listen to and just speed that stuff up. That's what they did best and that's what the sound they are trying to recapture was. |
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Edited at: Thursday, June 30, 2011 9:43:30 AM |
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| [Head banger] Thursday, June 30, 2011 7:36:19 AM | |
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money and popularity have to enter into it. you cant say that a band that virtualy no one likes is the best.
and sorry, I still dont see pantera. frankly their best comes in right around the reload mark for me. that is, stuck in a box somewhere. |
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| [.] Thursday, June 30, 2011 2:31:15 AM | |
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If you are going to use money issues to determine the legacy and greatness of a metal band, then you are using the wrong markers.
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| [guidogodoy] Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:37:28 AM | |
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Truth be told, I don't think I have spoken much about Metallica or Maiden much except to reiteritate my point in that they were once great. I used to love them. Now I pity them.
If your model of sounding off after poor Lars in that "the Internet is the cause of the loss of revinue" (poor guy can only buy three planes now...see South Park) and that downloading has killed their revinue, why can EMINEM or even Foo Fighters still fill arenas? Sure, the model changed, but the dinosaurs didn't adapt. Plain and simple. If you want to talk real numbers, those that DID made and continue to make a killing in bypassing the record stores selling directly to the public. Ah yes, and let's not forget merchandising. Hell, I just shelled out another hundred for more Metal God shirts + 2 DVDs.
Your argument about IM's DOD doensn't hold water. Check YouTube and compare their pitiful numbers against Justin Bieber. Both suck, IMO, but the kid DWARFS Maiden. Musical shit (as I argue both are) aside, were you to book one act for your concert hall, which would it be? Like it or not, the "large audience" will be with the kid with the funny haircut 1000=1. Think downloading music has hurt him much?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by . from Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:11:48 AM)| | | . wrote: | | Then why discuss Metallica at all? Or Iron Maiden? If they're such irrelevant jokes today, why bother talking about them at all?
To tell the truth, they both draw large audiences - STILL - and their live shows are still worth every buck. It's hard to compare when they were fresh young guys reeking of diapers to the grown up and calloused musicians of today... and still be fair. In that we agree.
As for Megadeth, they're still around and I hold them in the same high regard as I do Metallica. If I'm not mistaken - please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm usually wrong - Megadeth endorses the Mayhem fest (or something like it).
The difference from when they became big to now is that the internet and downloading changed the whole thing, but you already know that and I'm being redundant by saying it.
It made it more complicated, with more hands in the pie, more laws and more lawyers, and Metallica showed difficulty in adapting to that kind of situation, I think. Truly protective of their shit, that lot.
If the main interest of all bands concerned was to make shitloads of money by selling records once hitting mainstream, now it can't be that way anymore. It's the live shows that make the cash and it's where these bands still excel - thus drawing thousands.
Stuff from IM's Dance of Death may sound contrived to you, but if you check YouTube you will see it works fine with a large audience.
| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Sorry. I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about old Metallica.
Look at your calendar (while you decide if you have "a nut" or not) and I hope you notice that this was almost 30 YEARS ago now! FFS! Metallica of new is like Maiden of new. Both are pure jokes.
Sadly, though, I can't come up with any American band that did have more influence on metal. "DID" being the key word.
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| [.] Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:15:07 AM | |
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Slayer, as much as I like them, always sound the same live.
Album 1, 2 or 3, it's all the same
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by jimmyjames from Thursday, June 30, 2011 12:16:45 AM)| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | Yeah I was thinking about Pantera too but if I really compared the two Metallica were probably better at their peak. I would have to say that if you took Metallicas first five and Pantera from Cowboys through to Reinventing Metallica would probably have the edge, for me anyway. The amount of times I've listened to Ride The Lightning over the years completely dwarfs the amount of time I've listened to Vulgar Display. Megadeth is a good call. They are definately bringing out way better shit than Metallica these days. Saw an interview with Mustaine the other day actually and he reckons the material he's working on now is his best since Countdown. But yeah they've been consistantly good for a long time but they've never reached the heights of Metallica, they've never reached the lows either. Slayer are pretty consistant too, never put out a bad album.
| | | Budred wrote: | | If you want to base an opinion on their first five albums then I agree with you. No one has done what they have.
That also makes me correct in saying they were the greatest for a period. If you want to base it on an entire history or catalog
then I would say maybe Pantera. They put out some pretty heavy shit that might equal what Metallica did. My top answer
for overall consistancy and longevity would be Megadeth. They (in my opinion) have yet to release an album that is utter crap.
You even stated they were better than Metallica on the Big Four so that tells me they still have it. I'm going to see them next
month and I can't wait. Lastly, "Any" metal band putting out good albums is better than current Metallica.
I'm not bashing Metallica. Up to a certain point I thought they were great and like you state maybe the best "American" metal
band out there. All I'm saying is that they're not so great anymore. |
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| [.] Thursday, June 30, 2011 1:11:48 AM | |
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Then why discuss Metallica at all? Or Iron Maiden? If they're such irrelevant jokes today, why bother talking about them at all?
To tell the truth, they both draw large audiences - STILL - and their live shows are still worth every buck. It's hard to compare when they were fresh young guys reeking of diapers to the grown up and calloused musicians of today... and still be fair. In that we agree.
As for Megadeth, they're still around and I hold them in the same high regard as I do Metallica. If I'm not mistaken - please correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm usually wrong - Megadeth endorses the Mayhem fest (or something like it).
The difference from when they became big to now is that the internet and downloading changed the whole thing, but you already know that and I'm being redundant by saying it.
It made it more complicated, with more hands in the pie, more laws and more lawyers, and Metallica showed difficulty in adapting to that kind of situation, I think. Truly protective of their shit, that lot.
If the main interest of all bands concerned was to make shitloads of money by selling records once hitting mainstream, now it can't be that way anymore. It's the live shows that make the cash and it's where these bands still excel - thus drawing thousands.
Stuff from IM's Dance of Death may sound contrived to you, but if you check YouTube you will see it works fine with a large audience.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:13:23 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Sorry. I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about old Metallica.
Look at your calendar (while you decide if you have "a nut" or not) and I hope you notice that this was almost 30 YEARS ago now! FFS! Metallica of new is like Maiden of new. Both are pure jokes.
Sadly, though, I can't come up with any American band that did have more influence on metal. "DID" being the key word.
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| [jimmyjames] Thursday, June 30, 2011 12:16:45 AM | |
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Yeah I was thinking about Pantera too but if I really compared the two Metallica were probably better at their peak. I would have to say that if you took Metallicas first five and Pantera from Cowboys through to Reinventing Metallica would probably have the edge, for me anyway. The amount of times I've listened to Ride The Lightning over the years completely dwarfs the amount of time I've listened to Vulgar Display. Megadeth is a good call. They are definately bringing out way better shit than Metallica these days. Saw an interview with Mustaine the other day actually and he reckons the material he's working on now is his best since Countdown. But yeah they've been consistantly good for a long time but they've never reached the heights of Metallica, they've never reached the lows either. Slayer are pretty consistant too, never put out a bad album.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Budred from Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:53:07 AM)| | | Budred wrote: | | If you want to base an opinion on their first five albums then I agree with you. No one has done what they have.
That also makes me correct in saying they were the greatest for a period. If you want to base it on an entire history or catalog
then I would say maybe Pantera. They put out some pretty heavy shit that might equal what Metallica did. My top answer
for overall consistancy and longevity would be Megadeth. They (in my opinion) have yet to release an album that is utter crap.
You even stated they were better than Metallica on the Big Four so that tells me they still have it. I'm going to see them next
month and I can't wait. Lastly, "Any" metal band putting out good albums is better than current Metallica.
I'm not bashing Metallica. Up to a certain point I thought they were great and like you state maybe the best "American" metal
band out there. All I'm saying is that they're not so great anymore. |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 11:06:03 PM | |
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and thats the rub. metalica for one decade beats out all other metal acts. who is overall beter and contributed more to metal. at some point that has to include popularity, and from metalica where do you go next? in US metal probably motley crue. realy? crue? but overall, I know they are hair metal, but leave metalica out and they would have to be the best. megadeath is heavier, but they are not and never have managed to be a headline act.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by guidogodoy from Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:13:23 PM)| | | guidogodoy wrote: | | Sorry. I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about old Metallica.
Look at your calendar (while you decide if you have "a nut" or not) and I hope you notice that this was almost 30 YEARS ago now! FFS! Metallica of new is like Maiden of new. Both are pure jokes.
Sadly, though, I can't come up with any American band that did have more influence on metal. "DID" being the key word.
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| [guidogodoy] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 8:13:23 PM | |
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Sorry. I don't seem to recall anyone complaining about old Metallica.
Look at your calendar (while you decide if you have "a nut" or not) and I hope you notice that this was almost 30 YEARS ago now! FFS! Metallica of new is like Maiden of new. Both are pure jokes.
Sadly, though, I can't come up with any American band that did have more influence on metal. "DID" being the key word.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by . from Wednesday, June 29, 2011 4:11:59 PM) |
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| [.] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 4:11:59 PM | |
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| [Brian_Evans] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:36:15 AM | |
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Mushroomhead ...lol!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by jimmyjames from Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:31:49 AM)| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | Ok, who are the greatest American metal band ever then? (Don't say Mushroomhead either).
| | | Budred wrote: | | I think after the "Black" album they did get a little lazy. There at least didn't seem to be much of an effort to put out
heavy metal records anymore. The "Load" album proved that with garbage like "King Nothing" and "Hero of the Day"
and a number of other shit songs on that one. "Re-Load" was a little better but still not up to par with their early material.
I think these two albums started their slide towards suckdom. Then too much experimentation killed them. They were the
greatest "American" metal band for a period. From "Load" on, not even close.
| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | | One of the best metal bands there has ever been. Definately the best American metal band ever. The Black album wasn't sellout and it definately wasn't lazy, they worked hard on that and got a huge sound happening. It's success was based on being the culmination of 10 years hard graft. They had been building momentum all that time. Justice had sold something like two million copies so by the time Black was released metal was being accepted in the mainstream. Black just hit at the right time and took Metallica over the top. After that they just wanted to take it in a different direction and it didn't really work. Load and Reload are fucking great American heavy rock albums though, there's some killer stuff on both of those. The Symphony thing is a bunch of pretentious shit but it's not a sellout, it's actually a risk, again to do something different. St. Anger is an abortion. Probably the worst album by a major act ever. Just crap, and if you watch the Some Kind Of Monster dvd you can see why. Egos and money and fuckwits like Bob Rock and that shrink thinking they were actually in the band was hideous. The whole album was a trainwreck and an embarrassment. Death Magnetic I think is pretty shit as well. They are trying to get their oold heavy sound back but at the same time they are trying to "out heavy" bands like Machine Head and it's not gonna happen. What they need to do is go back to listening to the old British metal albums of the 80s like Maiden and Diamond Head and Venom and Motorhead that they used to listen to and just speed that stuff up. That's what they did best and that's what the sound they are trying to recapture was. |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 7:22:56 AM | |
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consistancy is fine but there is no briliance in pantera. they are adequate. maybe. I dunno, megadeth is good, some briliance and way more consistant overall, but they (or dave) never hit the highs that metalica did in the 80's.
today if metalica tix go on sale they sell out our largest arena day one
megadeth has never headlined that same arena. been opener or second on the bil a number of times but on a headlining tour they play a smaller arena. could be because metalica sold out, but the black album was 20 years ago, and since then they havent done anything that got airplay. |
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| [Budred] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:53:07 AM | |
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If you want to base an opinion on their first five albums then I agree with you. No one has done what they have.
That also makes me correct in saying they were the greatest for a period. If you want to base it on an entire history or catalog
then I would say maybe Pantera. They put out some pretty heavy shit that might equal what Metallica did. My top answer
for overall consistancy and longevity would be Megadeth. They (in my opinion) have yet to release an album that is utter crap.
You even stated they were better than Metallica on the Big Four so that tells me they still have it. I'm going to see them next
month and I can't wait. Lastly, "Any" metal band putting out good albums is better than current Metallica.
I'm not bashing Metallica. Up to a certain point I thought they were great and like you state maybe the best "American" metal
band out there. All I'm saying is that they're not so great anymore. |
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| [Budred] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:53:06 AM | |
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Sorry. I got trigger happy and hit post twice.
Edited at: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 6:54:41 AM |
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| [jimmyjames] Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:30:31 AM | |
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It won't result in a back and forth. I just can't think of any band from the States that has even come close to achieving what Metallica has. Granted, their stuff from Load onwards is not as good as the first five albums but what other band has released five albums as good as those in quality?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Budred from Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:29:00 PM)| | | Budred wrote: | | If I name a band it's basically opinion and I'm sure you'll disagree so to avoid the back and forth
I'm going to pass. Considering they haven't put out anything of relevance in 15 years I'm surprised
that you think they are so great.
| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | Ok, who are the greatest American metal band ever then? (Don't say Mushroomhead either).
| | | Budred wrote: | | I think after the "Black" album they did get a little lazy. There at least didn't seem to be much of an effort to put out
heavy metal records anymore. The "Load" album proved that with garbage like "King Nothing" and "Hero of the Day"
and a number of other shit songs on that one. "Re-Load" was a little better but still not up to par with their early material.
I think these two albums started their slide towards suckdom. Then too much experimentation killed them. They were the
greatest "American" metal band for a period. From "Load" on, not even close.
| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | | One of the best metal bands there has ever been. Definately the best American metal band ever. The Black album wasn't sellout and it definately wasn't lazy, they worked hard on that and got a huge sound happening. It's success was based on being the culmination of 10 years hard graft. They had been building momentum all that time. Justice had sold something like two million copies so by the time Black was released metal was being accepted in the mainstream. Black just hit at the right time and took Metallica over the top. After that they just wanted to take it in a different direction and it didn't really work. Load and Reload are fucking great American heavy rock albums though, there's some killer stuff on both of those. The Symphony thing is a bunch of pretentious shit but it's not a sellout, it's actually a risk, again to do something different. St. Anger is an abortion. Probably the worst album by a major act ever. Just crap, and if you watch the Some Kind Of Monster dvd you can see why. Egos and money and fuckwits like Bob Rock and that shrink thinking they were actually in the band was hideous. The whole album was a trainwreck and an embarrassment. Death Magnetic I think is pretty shit as well. They are trying to get their oold heavy sound back but at the same time they are trying to "out heavy" bands like Machine Head and it's not gonna happen. What they need to do is go back to listening to the old British metal albums of the 80s like Maiden and Diamond Head and Venom and Motorhead that they used to listen to and just speed that stuff up. That's what they did best and that's what the sound they are trying to recapture was. |
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| [Budred] Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:29:00 PM | |
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If I name a band it's basically opinion and I'm sure you'll disagree so to avoid the back and forth
I'm going to pass. Considering they haven't put out anything of relevance in 15 years I'm surprised
that you think they are so great.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by jimmyjames from Tuesday, June 28, 2011 4:31:49 AM)| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | Ok, who are the greatest American metal band ever then? (Don't say Mushroomhead either).
| | | Budred wrote: | | I think after the "Black" album they did get a little lazy. There at least didn't seem to be much of an effort to put out
heavy metal records anymore. The "Load" album proved that with garbage like "King Nothing" and "Hero of the Day"
and a number of other shit songs on that one. "Re-Load" was a little better but still not up to par with their early material.
I think these two albums started their slide towards suckdom. Then too much experimentation killed them. They were the
greatest "American" metal band for a period. From "Load" on, not even close.
| | | jimmyjames wrote: | | | One of the best metal bands there has ever been. Definately the best American metal band ever. The Black album wasn't sellout and it definately wasn't lazy, they worked hard on that and got a huge sound happening. It's success was based on being the culmination of 10 years hard graft. They had been building momentum all that time. Justice had sold something like two million copies so by the time Black was released metal was being accepted in the mainstream. Black just hit at the right time and took Metallica over the top. After that they just wanted to take it in a different direction and it didn't really work. Load and Reload are fucking great American heavy rock albums though, there's some killer stuff on both of those. The Symphony thing is a bunch of pretentious shit but it's not a sellout, it's actually a risk, again to do something different. St. Anger is an abortion. Probably the worst album by a major act ever. Just crap, and if you watch the Some Kind Of Monster dvd you can see why. Egos and money and fuckwits like Bob Rock and that shrink thinking they were actually in the band was hideous. The whole album was a trainwreck and an embarrassment. Death Magnetic I think is pretty shit as well. They are trying to get their oold heavy sound back but at the same time they are trying to "out heavy" bands like Machine Head and it's not gonna happen. What they need to do is go back to listening to the old British metal albums of the 80s like Maiden and Diamond Head and Venom and Motorhead that they used to listen to and just speed that stuff up. That's what they did best and that's what the sound they are trying to recapture was. |
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