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Social Issues and Politics
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Discussions on sensitive and sometimes controversial subjects. PLAY NICE!!!!!






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[Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:23:06 PM 
good CEO's are rare, good bartenders are more comon, good broom pushers even more comon
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:36:41 PM)
[Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:22:23 PM 
but, are they not beter off with those jobs than the no jobs they had before hand, no farms, no hope.  at least its some hope.  not perfect, but a start.  some of the sweatshops need a kick in the ass, but most overseas jobs are not that bad.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:49:36 PM)
[Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:13:50 PM 
see, we dont always disagree.  I too have a beach then water that is in a form that can be walked upon by mere mortals
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:52:54 PM)
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:11:58 PM 
While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them.   [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM
[TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM 
Hurrah !  Another one of my pet peeves.  The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came !  Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone.  NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !  If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:48:08 PM)
[TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:39 PM 
Ideology and real life practice are very far apart and we both know it.  You also seem to use the terms Communism and Socialism interchangeably.  They are not the same.

Let's see.  The parties in the election were, as you stated, the Communitst Party, Social Democrates and Christian Socialists.  Doesn't sound like much of a choice and the results were as to be expected.  I think if you look around, you will find that those margins are to be expected in an "election" in which the Communist Party is a participant.

"Propaganda" ?  I don't recall using that word.  You're revealing yourself Comrade !

I agree on the subject of weapons being a waste of time, however the actual creativity that I love is usually not at that level.  Normally, the creativity is in the theory not the application.  Splitting the atom and nuclear power was genius.  The military application is another matter.  Let me pose this to you.  Being that most people cannot see into the future, aside from Nostradamus ( nice little Priest reference ! ), how do you see the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan ?  Did they help to end a war that was unprovoked by a surprise attack ?  Was it the mis-use of a creative vision ?  Something other ?
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:48:08 PM 
A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves. 
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view. 
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!

With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!

BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.

Love to all!
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM
[_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:35:11 PM 
Now thats a thought... Nah. We only do that for minor offenses.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:22:52 PM)
[_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM 
Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.

And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.

Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.


Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.

And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.

And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.

Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM)
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:22:52 PM 
Timbo, well said! I enjoyed every word of that!
Strat, as for the Justin Timberlake punishment. May I opt for death by bamboo shoots being inserted  under my fingernails?

  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM)
[_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:56 PM 
I am mercifull. I will let you off with only a fifth of the punishment. You will only listen to Justin Timberlake CDs... And youll be loving it!
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:01:49 PM)
[TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM 
" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class.  The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.

Elections ?  That's funny !  You always have that sense of humor.  I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty.  Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.

"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music"  ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.

Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative.  A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received.  It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.

This is where we disagree the most.  Creativity is EVERYTHING.  It is ideas  .  .  .  invention .  .  .  something from nothing !  Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse.  It creates power for lighting, heat, etc.  It also has the power to take lives.  The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.

Now to "how it is used": outsourcing.  We have come full circle.  UNIONS !  Unions created outsourcing.  They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation )  The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price.  It's a vicious circle.  The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc  .  .  .

Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly  and who decides that ?  Here, the market decides.  If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly".  If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy. 
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:49:36 PM)
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:01:49 PM 
Im on my knees sir! .................PLEASE! Have Mercy!..................Not the N'Sync CDs! ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!! Anihilated!
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:59:34 PM)
[_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:59:34 PM 
Its "The Great Socialist Federal Soviet Democratic Peoples Republic of Judas Priest", for your information.

Now, of to the gulag with you... "Guards, prepare the N´Sync CDs!"
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:55:41 PM)
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:55:41 PM 
LONG LIVE THE PEOPLES' REPUBLIC OF PRIEST! LMAO!
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:53:28 PM 
Yes sir, that is right!
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:51:33 PM)
[_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:52:54 PM 
Maybe in California it is. With our temperatures, Id have to bring an icepick to the beach.
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:51:33 PM)
[TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:51:33 PM 
Dive right in, the water's fine.  Everyone has something to say and it all counts equally in my book.  I think you summed it up perfectly if I'm reading you right.  Creative mind + quality product  = success ( reward )  Simple math to me.
[_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:49:36 PM 
First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.

Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.

As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.

Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment. 

Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly. 
  [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:59:42 PM)
[spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:48:18 PM 
This is like wadding into the water and finding it a bit deep! Halford manages his business like a good business man. I makes every penny count and I am glad to be one of his customers.
Priest, as a whole have the reputation and the craft to put together things no record company with any forsight is going to decline. A Grammy Nomination this year.
As for the rest, It sounds like, "we will drive the peoples truck, carrying the peoples message, for as long as the peoples gas holds out. LOL

Sorry, little shallow on Politico!
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