| [Deep Freeze] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:56:42 AM | |
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OY! Leave it to you guys to turn poor old Santa into some kind of evil icon for big corporations! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What sick and cynical minds you have!!! |
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| [_strat_] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:23:55 AM | |
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Dunno why Kiss is a better example... Anyway, employment. First of all, starting your own business is not an option for everyone, infact its not an option for most people. Not everyone has the ability to run a business. And if everyone was a business owner, what would the world look like? Who would work behind the assembly lines?
Changing your skills is not all that easy. There are many jobs that require a full comitment over many years to learn to do properly. Its not like I can just change my proffesion to find another job. Its a long procces.
Stay or leave. Where would this end? If there werent some minimums that an employer has to provide... We would get back into the 19th centruy, when workers literary slept in factories and worker just for bare existance.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:52:02 AM)| |  | Head banger wrote: | | priest might not be the best example, try kiss
the thing is, the employer decides what your work is worth to him. you decide what the job means to you, if they match, you stay, if not you leave. if your not happy with the jobs offered or the pay you move, or you change your skills, or you start your own business.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:19:02 AM | |
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Both. One goes with the other, doesnt it?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:13:16 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | strat, do you want the poor to have more or the rich to have less?
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 8:13:16 AM | |
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strat, do you want the poor to have more or the rich to have less?
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:57:13 AM | |
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sure, I dont have any coke with santa on it this year anyway.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:50:30 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ummm... Lets jsut say that he doesnt exist, and be done with it, ok?
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, his job is apearing in comercials, thats a volenteer spot, if you are a volenteer, how can you be exploited
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | No, he is exploited. He has to circle the globe in a single night, and give presents to little brats, and gets only milk and cookies in return.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, not exploited, the image of santa in red was created by coke, they spent money developing the image santa has today, shouldnt they be able to profit from that?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | He does, and he is being exploited by the Coca Cola corporation to appear in their adds. Ever wondered why he is all derssed up in red? Comrade Clause will be the leader of the new world revolution!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:52:02 AM | |
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priest might not be the best example, try kiss
the thing is, the employer decides what your work is worth to him. you decide what the job means to you, if they match, you stay, if not you leave. if your not happy with the jobs offered or the pay you move, or you change your skills, or you start your own business.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:08:17 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:50:30 AM | |
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Ummm... Lets jsut say that he doesnt exist, and be done with it, ok?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:49:25 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, his job is apearing in comercials, thats a volenteer spot, if you are a volenteer, how can you be exploited
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | No, he is exploited. He has to circle the globe in a single night, and give presents to little brats, and gets only milk and cookies in return.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, not exploited, the image of santa in red was created by coke, they spent money developing the image santa has today, shouldnt they be able to profit from that?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | He does, and he is being exploited by the Coca Cola corporation to appear in their adds. Ever wondered why he is all derssed up in red? Comrade Clause will be the leader of the new world revolution!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:49:25 AM | |
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no, his job is apearing in comercials, thats a volenteer spot, if you are a volenteer, how can you be exploited
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:41:03 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | No, he is exploited. He has to circle the globe in a single night, and give presents to little brats, and gets only milk and cookies in return.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, not exploited, the image of santa in red was created by coke, they spent money developing the image santa has today, shouldnt they be able to profit from that?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | He does, and he is being exploited by the Coca Cola corporation to appear in their adds. Ever wondered why he is all derssed up in red? Comrade Clause will be the leader of the new world revolution!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:41:03 AM | |
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No, he is exploited. He has to circle the globe in a single night, and give presents to little brats, and gets only milk and cookies in return.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:38:37 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | no, not exploited, the image of santa in red was created by coke, they spent money developing the image santa has today, shouldnt they be able to profit from that?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | He does, and he is being exploited by the Coca Cola corporation to appear in their adds. Ever wondered why he is all derssed up in red? Comrade Clause will be the leader of the new world revolution!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:38:37 AM | |
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no, not exploited, the image of santa in red was created by coke, they spent money developing the image santa has today, shouldnt they be able to profit from that?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 4:49:49 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | He does, and he is being exploited by the Coca Cola corporation to appear in their adds. Ever wondered why he is all derssed up in red? Comrade Clause will be the leader of the new world revolution!
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:08:17 AM | |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:30:14 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 4:49:49 AM | |
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He does, and he is being exploited by the Coca Cola corporation to appear in their adds. Ever wondered why he is all derssed up in red? Comrade Clause will be the leader of the new world revolution!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:32:58 PM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [TIMBONI] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 9:30:14 PM | |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:33:32 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Deep Freeze] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 6:32:58 PM | |
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Oh my dear friend, I did not mean to appear misleading ( two "L"'s in fallacious, by the way...HA!!!!!) . I am simply aware that this is an impasse for us. Would not be the first time and certainly will not be the last! We could continue to debate and counter but it is really a study in futility. I will accept that you have your opinion and I will have mine and we can let it go at that.
So, NEW topic. .... ? Does Santa Claus really exist?? HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:33:32 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:00:55 PM | |
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start an airline or major asembly plant with less? cant do it.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:44:33 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | ...assuming that there was absolutely no way of risking far less, and gradualy getting to the same result.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | took the risk that endangered everyone. but if he didnt take that risk, all those people wouldnt have jobs. and if he didnt take said risk, the car would still be an item for the upper class, not the average. sorry, went back to ford. no risk, no reward. everyone is equal, and has nothing
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:44:33 PM | |
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...assuming that there was absolutely no way of risking far less, and gradualy getting to the same result.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:42:00 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | took the risk that endangered everyone. but if he didnt take that risk, all those people wouldnt have jobs. and if he didnt take said risk, the car would still be an item for the upper class, not the average. sorry, went back to ford. no risk, no reward. everyone is equal, and has nothing
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:42:00 PM | |
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took the risk that endangered everyone. but if he didnt take that risk, all those people wouldnt have jobs. and if he didnt take said risk, the car would still be an item for the upper class, not the average. sorry, went back to ford. no risk, no reward. everyone is equal, and has nothing
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:33:32 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:38:54 PM | |
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sure, here you can beg, or work. simple choice.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:19:45 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | In a predominantly capitalist world, would they have a choice? Also, there is always Venezuela...
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but, for sanctions to mater they have to be engaged in global trade, and isnt global trade a capitalist venture?
they spend more on guns to point at citizens than on anything else. sort of like the berlin wall. its a beautiful place, but stuck with a system that keeps people looking for ways to beg for money from tourists.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I dont know about Cuba or what particular type of socialism are they using. i do know that they are still under sanctions that go back to the crisis in 62, and that has to be taken into consideration. But in any case, I know how we had it, and thats what Im talking about in all the previous posts. And if socialsm is bad... Well, lets look at some present and past capitalist countries, like Chile under Pinochet, or countries in south east Asia (China - I dont care what they have on the flag, they are as capitalist as it gets).
| | | kiamat wrote: | | This summer I spent three weeks in Cuba doing conservation work and I failed to see any sign of socialism providing a decent life for the many. Instead, money made by the economy (and there must be plenty, much of Cuba is very fertile agricultural land) is poured into posh tourist hotels and a propaganda campaign that practically deifies Castro and Che Guevara. You could credit their government with excellent healthcare and educational services, but what good is that when the hospitals fall down and most of the university graduates leave the country on the basis that they can earn more cleaning toilets in Miami than they can in the highest paid jobs in Havana?
The only money people there can get outside of government restricted earnings is from tourists (which only aids those in tourist areas- poverty in most of the countryside is widespread). And the more tourists come, handing out extravagant tips left, right and centre, the harder it is for the government to persuade people that Cuba really is doing well out of socialism.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:02:31 AM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:33:32 PM | |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:20:47 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, December 23, 2008 4:19:45 PM | |
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In a predominantly capitalist world, would they have a choice? Also, there is always Venezuela...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, December 23, 2008 7:54:35 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | but, for sanctions to mater they have to be engaged in global trade, and isnt global trade a capitalist venture?
they spend more on guns to point at citizens than on anything else. sort of like the berlin wall. its a beautiful place, but stuck with a system that keeps people looking for ways to beg for money from tourists.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I dont know about Cuba or what particular type of socialism are they using. i do know that they are still under sanctions that go back to the crisis in 62, and that has to be taken into consideration. But in any case, I know how we had it, and thats what Im talking about in all the previous posts. And if socialsm is bad... Well, lets look at some present and past capitalist countries, like Chile under Pinochet, or countries in south east Asia (China - I dont care what they have on the flag, they are as capitalist as it gets).
| | | kiamat wrote: | | This summer I spent three weeks in Cuba doing conservation work and I failed to see any sign of socialism providing a decent life for the many. Instead, money made by the economy (and there must be plenty, much of Cuba is very fertile agricultural land) is poured into posh tourist hotels and a propaganda campaign that practically deifies Castro and Che Guevara. You could credit their government with excellent healthcare and educational services, but what good is that when the hospitals fall down and most of the university graduates leave the country on the basis that they can earn more cleaning toilets in Miami than they can in the highest paid jobs in Havana?
The only money people there can get outside of government restricted earnings is from tourists (which only aids those in tourist areas- poverty in most of the countryside is widespread). And the more tourists come, handing out extravagant tips left, right and centre, the harder it is for the government to persuade people that Cuba really is doing well out of socialism.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 5:02:31 AM |
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