They most certainly are NOT imaginary!!! They are in my neighbor's garage........HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah well, I must depart for a while! Thank you , as usual strat, for the stimulating conversation! It is ALWAYS a pleasure, I can assure you. And DC, GREAT to see you again my friend. Please come by more often!!!
Bye guys!!!!!!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by stratlover from Saturday, November 08, 2008 11:52:54 AM)
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stratlover wrote: |
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COME ON!!! You still use that excuse over there? Youre not so advanced as I thoguht...
But in any case, it beats the hell out of the imgainary WMDs...
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DemonCat wrote: |
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That would be too fair Strat. The government must twist things in such a way as to get what it wants.
So you aren't considering Obama a risk to peace? He's already set up one of the oldest excuses in the book...
Obama's letter of opology to the World for WW3 will read something like this...
Dear sir, or madam's,
I had the peace negotiations last night I swear, but my daughters new puppy ate it!
Sincerely opologetic,
Obama
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stratlover wrote: |
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That is true, but as I said, I dont see it as a matter of knowing, rather as a matter of being entitled to something. I mean, lets face it, most people dont really take a great interest in politics. But most people are in one way or the other supporting the state apparatus. Now, if they have to, then I think its only right that they get to choose who leads it. Those things actualy are mutualy inclusive for the most part. I mean, its not like you have to understand politics very well to know which side represents what at a certain time.
Actualy George bush was elected because of your weird electing system. And thats something that I wanted to ask to. What all this stuff with electoral votes? Why not just count all the voters votes and determine the winner?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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I understand, DC. No worries.
Strat, as usual you make some very salient points. My problem with what you say is this;
Rights and duties are fine. Just because one comes of age does NOT mean one is capable of making decisions as an adult. Just because we "treat" eighteen year olds as adults and they can work and pay taxes and fight in a war does NOT mean they understand politics. So often, people use that silly argument, "Well, if you can fight a war, you should be able to drink, vote, own a gun..whatever..." These things are NOT mutually inclusive!! That is ridiculous. Just because I wear a swimsuit does NOT mean I can swim!!! The "right" to vote is fine. It is part of our Constitution and I accept that but that does NOT mean I AGREE with it!
George Bush was elected because he was the BETTER man. (OH boy..I can hear the haters typing on their keyboards now!!! HA!!) That does not mean it was the RIGHT choice. The "changes" in our voters to which you refer do not include intelligence. Bush was unpopular, I agree. He made mistakes, I agree. I still back him. I will back the new man WHEN he takes office.
Influencing politics would best be served by actually being a politician, as far as I can see. But, as voters, we are very limited in what we can do. And because the majority of our public ARE morons, we get what we get. They do NOT "think for themselves". They believe what "Oprah" tells them! If we were to require EVERY voter to REALLY KNOW what he/she is doing , rather than just being "of age", the influence would be greater and the results better. That , my friend, is MY "humble opinion".
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stratlover wrote: |
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Well, that is the immpression that I got. I apologise if it isnt true, as you say.
But in any case, yes, it is true, people do learn more as they get older. But this isnt exactly a question of knowledge and experiences. Its a question of rights and duties. In most countries in the world 18 is the age at which people get
officialy treated as adults. Some already go to work at that age and pay taxes so that people like your president or my prime minister can have their wages. Some go to college, but by the mid 20s most work and pay taxes. We all get treated as adults when we are accused of breaking the law. The male half is subject to draft and military service. But we also get rights, and the right to vote is among them. Imo, if we set the age limit for the rights to 30, we should also set the age limit for duties to the same age. Otherwise there will be a generation of people who will have the same duties as their elders, but they wont have the same right to influence politics, that in turn influence our everyday lives.
Now about intelligence... Granted, I dont really know much about an average American voter, but if the vast majority of them are idiots and mindless drones who vote the same as Oprah (and at least on her I can agree, I hate her and her stupid show), how did George Bush win two elections in a row? There have clearly been changes in your voting public, and there are clearly people who voted Obama, that used to vote Bush. And judging by the results, there are a lot of them. It goes to show that there are a lot of people out there who can think for themselves.
As far as Obamas skin colour goes... Well, I agree, who gives a fuck. Apart from the KKK, but they are the least of his problems now.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Oh strat! You know me better than that! My comments had NOTHING to do with the election results (whether or not McCain was the better choice). Doesn't anyone actually read what I write??
First, the reason I use that age is because people really do learn as they grow older. Experience is an incredible asset, my friend. I have never said that all young people are clueless. Take yourself, for example. A very intelligent young man. I am speaking in generalities because, the sad fact is, you do not need intelligence to qualify to vote. The vast majority of the voting public are mindless drones that drool when phonies like Oprah Winfrey speak. They have NO idea what an issue is OR what their "party" stands for. Which leads me to my second response,
I do not believe that any one particular party is right on every issue. I do not always agree with the "right wing" agenda, my friend. I am just wise enough to know that the "system" is NOT going to change in MY lifetime. I also have enough sense to see that Obama has NOT "brought us together" any more or less than any other president-elect! That is absolute HOGWASH. He has done NOTHING but win an election. Nothing. The fact that he is a blackman is irrelevant to me. All of that is hype propogated by the Democratic party in a lame attempt to paint this person as something "larger than life" prior to earning it. Typical smoke and mirrors politics. "Oh look at how he has broken barriers.." "Oh see how he has united the public"... BS!!!!!!! He won an election. Nothing more. Has he made it further than any other blackman in politics? Of course. Does that mean something to some people, apparently. For all the talk about how he has "transcended racial barriers", they sure like to keep reminding us of his color, don't they??
I am not bitter, strat. The vote is in and I will back the president when he takes office. When he finally DOES something as a president, I will comment on that.
(Quoting Message by stratlover from Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:24:55 AM)
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stratlover wrote: |
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Aha. So, what exactly does happen at the age of thirty to change a person from someone who should not be allowed to vote, to someone who should be? And what would those exams look like? "Whats better, left or right?" Sorry Freeze, but I cant escape the feeling that you wouldnt be saying all this about Obama and his supporters if McCain had won.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Ohhhhhboy...........
To begin with, my comment was NOT meant racially. Everyone here knows my feeling on race relations! It was and remains a comment on the youth mentality of our nation. And I could not care less what the "law" says, an 18 year old is a child! As for "many older , white folk", you made the color distinction, not me. I could not care less what color a person is. Wrong is wrong. You make a GREAT point for an argument I have had for YEARS;
NO ONE under the age of THIRTY should be allowed to vote AND it should be MANDATORY that EVERYONE who votes has passed a CIVICS Exam! I am certain that I mentioned in previous posts that MOST voters would not know an ISSUE from a TISSUE! These fine folks you mentioned most certainly understand the platform of the Democratic Liberal Left , though...right?
I am shocked at your response, DC! Mainly because of what I recall are your "Christian" beliefs! It would occur to me that you would be much more concerned with the religious right agenda that will now be packed away and stored until this liberal uprising has been quelled. The "baby killers" are loose in the country, man!!! Mosques will be in a neighborhood near you!!! Christ was just a guy that ran into a bit of bad luck with a piece of wood and the Romans! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I think you get my point.
I made another point to say, at the beginning of one of my posts, that I believe there is nothing much to be said because he has not done anything yet! I still believe that. I said it once and will say it again, I do NOT knock the man that leads my team. I wish him the best. I did NOT vote for him but that is fine. I will reserve my kudos for an accomplishment or two. Winning this election on the backs of disingenuous blacks, frustrated adults with NO clue and children in baggy pants is nothing to cheer about!
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DemonCat wrote: |
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"As I have said over and over the last year or two, this is what happens when we have a voting public that looks to the likes of someone that calls himself "P Diddy" or "Snoop" for their direction. This is NOT Obama's fault, this is the fault of allowing idiots and children to vote."
I know plenty of intelligent, elderly, white folk that voted for Obama ( who never heard of P Diddy, or Snoop Dog), but rather, because they were sick-and-tired, of Republican "answers" to the U.S.'s problems! It was proven across this great Nation by the number of Senate leaders, and Congressmen that were voted in to the appropriate offices. People over the age of 18 aren't considered "children"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Give Obama his CUDOS for bringing young MEN, and WOMEN to realize their worth at the voting booth, and proving that their voice/vote DOES count!
Reguardless of what any of us think at this juncture in time,...we will ALL have to take a "wait, and see" mentality...to see, if any of the campaign promises will become reality. Let us all just take the moment to embrace to significant historical step this Nation has taken towards the future of true democracy, and the dream that many of us hold dear to our hearts as to what it means for ALL humans regardless of color, and background!
Now enough of the "racial" bullshit. I, and many voted for Obama, because he was the better candidate! NUFF SAID!!!!! (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Wednesday, November 05, 2008 6:49:38 AM)
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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I realize there will be wide and varied opinon regarding the result of this election. You all know where I stand and I make no bones about it. Having said this, I also realize that this Thread is for discussion. It was created to inspire debate. Darryn fully intended to challenge us as thinking individuals, not just "Metal-heads". Sometimes we rant here, sometimes we muse. Sometimes we argue, sometimes we agree. But this room always gives me something to ponder when I am done.
I feel this morning alot like I did when Clinton was first elected. I am disappointed, surely. I am not angry. I am a bit sad and I am certainly concerned but not angry. The real problem this morning is, the new president has not done anything to warrant debate yet! All we are able to do now is offer conjecture. What might happen. I guess that is a reason to chat but I do not see much debate in it at this point.
I will not rail against the other party. I do not believe that will be constructive and I am not a poor loser. More importantly, I do NOT knock the captain of the team on which I play. I may not have voted for him, but you will never hear me make nasty comments about the US President while he is in office. I did not do it to Carter nor Clinton and Iwon't do it now. I do not see that as productive and certainly not wise. We as a country should always stand as one. That is something the "other side" has never learned.
As for why I am sad, there is a very good reason. John McCain is an American hero. A real-live hero. He was captured by the enemy, tortured. Refused to be a tool for propaganda (Right, Jane??) and endured hell for love of this great nation. And what did this country do? They turned their collective backs on him and picked a "rock star". So be it. As I have said over and over the last year or two, this is what happens when we have a voting public that looks to the likes of someone that calls himself "P Diddy" or "Snoop" for their direction. This is NOT Obama's fault, this is the fault of allowing idiots and children to vote.
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Edited at: Saturday, November 08, 2008 2:35:13 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, November 08, 2008 10:53:34 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, November 08, 2008 11:57:29 AM |
