Well, it makes it harder too reach for the stars, but at least it guarantees a certain minimum that you can always count on, no matter how down on your luck you may be.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, May 17, 2009 12:46:19 PM)| |  | Head banger wrote: | | but... the welfare state provides less incentive to work, reducing the total production of the state, so everyone has less
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Of course it matters. Its just this pride and all the emotion that goes with it (speaking of nationality here) that I dont understand. Come tho think of it, I dont want to understand it.
The government sets things up, and thats about as much as it can do. A certain number (a majority) of people still have to work.
And as far as Im concerned, while it has its drawbacks, a welfare state is a very good thing. Does much more good than harm.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | ah, but you said that nothing from before your birth mattered.
the government absolutly depends on its people, but many governments set things up so the people depend on it, and cant take actions for themselfs.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I should also be ashamed for what they did wrong. And why stop at parents? Why not go back all the way to that first monkey that jumped off a tree and said "oh, Im tired of eating bananas. I want some BBQ!" and invented fire.
That, and family and nation are two very different things.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | so you feel no pride in what your parents acomplished?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yup. Grey uniforms. VERY funny.
Personaly, pride is for something I achieved, not something that was determined from birth.
Names and nationality have very little in common. For a start, the parents can choose the name of the child, whereas the nationality is predetermined. And why would I be proud of where I come from? Why would you be, for that matter? What history do you come from? As far as Im concerned, my history started when I was born, not a day before.
| | | spapad wrote: | | So pride in being who you are from where your from is shunned in your ideal society? Does everyone wear gray uniforms and have a number instead of a name? The act of giving a child a name is in and of itself showing pride in who that person is and where and what history they come from.
No thanks.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well... Its associated with patriotism/nationalism, which nowadays is most commonly associated with the political right. When this has happened, I couldnt say, but it used to be pretty neutral, Im sure. Even Stalin resorted to nationalism in WW2, as did our leaders in WW2 and on, even tho they were leftists.
Basicaly, somewhere in the mid 20th century, most radical leftists in the west returned to the old idea of internationalism, as opposed to nationalism, or patriotism. I guess we can find some reasons in that.
As far as Im concerned, its bullshit. Basicly its saying: dont complain, work, be a good citizen, and do whatever we tell you. Theres more than a bit of fascism in that quote. Its why I personaly oppose any pride or feelings of affection for ones country, ethnic group or race.
| | | Head banger wrote: | |
in the 60 a left/center politician named kenedy uttered this famous line "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" today that would be a very right wing idea. what has caused this shift in ideals and is it a good or bad thing? |
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