| [jimmyjames] Monday, December 29, 2008 1:06:59 PM | |
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Especially when God or Gods of any type don't exist. How the hell, in this day and age, can people expect to be taken seriously when they spend their time praying to some non-existant deity. Even going to church once a week for an hour, what's that about? Crazy, meaningless rituals that are based on the fact that people can't face their own mortality. Losers.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by MG_Metalgoddess from Monday, December 29, 2008 11:07:06 AM)| |  | MG_Metalgoddess wrote: | | OMG What the HELL is going on over in LONDON !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geesh..
I wish people could just get over this entire religious thing!!!!! Who cares what religion you are!
So long as you are a kind good hearted individual, with good intentions, ... I mean its ridiculous the amount of
Violence and hardship this causes... I have meet so many people that I adore in this world.. I could care less what religion they are, that is thier personel buisness...
I think its sad, that people base the value of another person because of this.. Esp because alot of people are born, into different religions and continue to follow that religion because of thier heritage...
Anywase my Rant for the day!
MG~ |
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| [Head banger] Monday, December 29, 2008 12:40:05 PM | |
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| [~ MG_Metalgoddess~] Monday, December 29, 2008 11:07:06 AM | |
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OMG What the HELL is going on over in LONDON !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geesh..
I wish people could just get over this entire religious thing!!!!! Who cares what religion you are!
So long as you are a kind good hearted individual, with good intentions, ... I mean its ridiculous the amount of
Violence and hardship this causes... I have meet so many people that I adore in this world.. I could care less what religion they are, that is thier personel buisness...
I think its sad, that people base the value of another person because of this.. Esp because alot of people are born, into different religions and continue to follow that religion because of thier heritage...
Anywase my Rant for the day!
MG~ |
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| [Return_of_Darth_Painkiller_0870] Monday, December 29, 2008 8:28:59 AM | |
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Strat, what BSE means is that whenever countries ask for American or British help, we jump in and assist. Be it Taiwan, Philippines, Bosnia, Somalia, etc...And no, we don't provide aid whenever it purely suits our interests. We provide aid when there are people in trouble. That's what America and Great Britain do.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, December 29, 2008 7:25:29 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, even if all this moronic patriotism about "the blood of our nation" was true, it would still hardly be a compensation for the legacy of centuires of colonialism and modern day neo-colonialism. And it would definatly not be a good enough excuse for the corporate exploitation of the workforce in east Asia.
As for "whenever you are in need"... I do not know who this "you" refers to, but the fact is that the majority of the conflicts that are going on around the world never appear on our (and I suppose your) news and newspapers. If it really was about solidarity with the third world, then I guess Africa would be full of NATO troops. It isnt, tho. Western powers only interfere when their interests are in question, that is the fact of the matter.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | Very good answer. The 3rd world thinks that we here in the UK and you in America contribute little to the world's suffering. That's we don't give you enough from our own pockets. That we don't share the spoils of our labour. That we don't contribute enough to assist you in your wars. That our Imperialism has done little good in the plight of the poor. For heaven's sake.....we give you the most precious posession and gift we have. Our blood. The blood of our nation whenever you're in need. And then you have the odacity to condemn us? Shame us into guilt? Belittle and betray us? What more do you want from us? Thank you. a. Hammerstein
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! 
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [Return_of_Darth_Painkiller_0870] Monday, December 29, 2008 8:20:04 AM | |
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I agree HB. The vast majority of Africa is beyond help. And the worst part of cleaning up that particular mess would be equal to genocide - because putting them in prison or 'rehabiliting' them is a joke.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, December 29, 2008 8:01:02 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | Well, first of all, even our vast countries have limited resources. fact is, there are troops in africa, central america, asia, etc. but, like I said we (combined rich nations) only have so many troops. Canada, has 1/3 of its troops overseas, be it afganistan, cyprus, or wherever. are there places that need more help, sure. we do the best we can. Africa though, quite frankly most of that is beynd help IMO
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, even if all this moronic patriotism about "the blood of our nation" was true, it would still hardly be a compensation for the legacy of centuires of colonialism and modern day neo-colonialism. And it would definatly not be a good enough excuse for the corporate exploitation of the workforce in east Asia.
As for "whenever you are in need"... I do not know who this "you" refers to, but the fact is that the majority of the conflicts that are going on around the world never appear on our (and I suppose your) news and newspapers. If it really was about solidarity with the third world, then I guess Africa would be full of NATO troops. It isnt, tho. Western powers only interfere when their interests are in question, that is the fact of the matter.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | Very good answer. The 3rd world thinks that we here in the UK and you in America contribute little to the world's suffering. That's we don't give you enough from our own pockets. That we don't share the spoils of our labour. That we don't contribute enough to assist you in your wars. That our Imperialism has done little good in the plight of the poor. For heaven's sake.....we give you the most precious posession and gift we have. Our blood. The blood of our nation whenever you're in need. And then you have the odacity to condemn us? Shame us into guilt? Belittle and betray us? What more do you want from us? Thank you. a. Hammerstein
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, December 29, 2008 8:01:02 AM | |
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Well, first of all, even our vast countries have limited resources. fact is, there are troops in africa, central america, asia, etc. but, like I said we (combined rich nations) only have so many troops. Canada, has 1/3 of its troops overseas, be it afganistan, cyprus, or wherever. are there places that need more help, sure. we do the best we can. Africa though, quite frankly most of that is beynd help IMO
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, December 29, 2008 7:25:29 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, even if all this moronic patriotism about "the blood of our nation" was true, it would still hardly be a compensation for the legacy of centuires of colonialism and modern day neo-colonialism. And it would definatly not be a good enough excuse for the corporate exploitation of the workforce in east Asia.
As for "whenever you are in need"... I do not know who this "you" refers to, but the fact is that the majority of the conflicts that are going on around the world never appear on our (and I suppose your) news and newspapers. If it really was about solidarity with the third world, then I guess Africa would be full of NATO troops. It isnt, tho. Western powers only interfere when their interests are in question, that is the fact of the matter.
| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | Very good answer. The 3rd world thinks that we here in the UK and you in America contribute little to the world's suffering. That's we don't give you enough from our own pockets. That we don't share the spoils of our labour. That we don't contribute enough to assist you in your wars. That our Imperialism has done little good in the plight of the poor. For heaven's sake.....we give you the most precious posession and gift we have. Our blood. The blood of our nation whenever you're in need. And then you have the odacity to condemn us? Shame us into guilt? Belittle and betray us? What more do you want from us? Thank you. a. Hammerstein
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
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| [_strat_] Monday, December 29, 2008 7:25:29 AM | |
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Well, even if all this moronic patriotism about "the blood of our nation" was true, it would still hardly be a compensation for the legacy of centuires of colonialism and modern day neo-colonialism. And it would definatly not be a good enough excuse for the corporate exploitation of the workforce in east Asia.
As for "whenever you are in need"... I do not know who this "you" refers to, but the fact is that the majority of the conflicts that are going on around the world never appear on our (and I suppose your) news and newspapers. If it really was about solidarity with the third world, then I guess Africa would be full of NATO troops. It isnt, tho. Western powers only interfere when their interests are in question, that is the fact of the matter.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by BLOOD SUCKER Esquire from Monday, December 29, 2008 1:26:54 AM)| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | Very good answer. The 3rd world thinks that we here in the UK and you in America contribute little to the world's suffering. That's we don't give you enough from our own pockets. That we don't share the spoils of our labour. That we don't contribute enough to assist you in your wars. That our Imperialism has done little good in the plight of the poor. For heaven's sake.....we give you the most precious posession and gift we have. Our blood. The blood of our nation whenever you're in need. And then you have the odacity to condemn us? Shame us into guilt? Belittle and betray us? What more do you want from us? Thank you. a. Hammerstein
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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| [Return_of_Darth_Painkiller_0870] Monday, December 29, 2008 6:05:47 AM | |
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BSE, I think you meant that for _strat_, not Timboni.
In response to your post, I believe that a lot of the food and supplies we ship to these 3rd world countries gets hijacked (for lack of a better term) by the petty regimes and warlords who dominate the landscape of those places (calling Africa).
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by BLOOD SUCKER Esquire from Monday, December 29, 2008 1:26:54 AM)| | | BLOOD SUCKER Esquire wrote: | | Very good answer. The 3rd world thinks that we here in the UK and you in America contribute little to the world's suffering. That's we don't give you enough from our own pockets. That we don't share the spoils of our labour. That we don't contribute enough to assist you in your wars. That our Imperialism has done little good in the plight of the poor. For heaven's sake.....we give you the most precious posession and gift we have. Our blood. The blood of our nation whenever you're in need. And then you have the odacity to condemn us? Shame us into guilt? Belittle and betray us? What more do you want from us? Thank you. a. Hammerstein
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [BLOOD SUCKER Esquire] Monday, December 29, 2008 1:26:54 AM | |
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Very good answer. The 3rd world thinks that we here in the UK and you in America contribute little to the world's suffering. That's we don't give you enough from our own pockets. That we don't share the spoils of our labour. That we don't contribute enough to assist you in your wars. That our Imperialism has done little good in the plight of the poor. For heaven's sake.....we give you the most precious posession and gift we have. Our blood. The blood of our nation whenever you're in need. And then you have the odacity to condemn us? Shame us into guilt? Belittle and betray us? What more do you want from us? Thank you. a. Hammerstein
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:32:52 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, December 28, 2008 6:55:43 PM | |
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probably fear of either being shot, or losing what job they had. if those in say vietnam organized then the jobs go to bangledesh. and the police in these sorts of places dont mind mass graves.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, December 28, 2008 5:35:54 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Then I guess that the managers shouldnt bother with outsourcing in the first place.
The thing with rights above all takes organization and determination from those that need them. I dont know why dont the workers in the third world countries get organized and do it, but if they did, I can assure you that the stuff that goes on now with sweatsop and legal slave labour would have been washed away so soon you wouldnt even beleive it. And that would have been the right thing to do as well.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | they cant get paid the same though, otherwise how would you pay to ship the products to north america and europe? and if you dont make more, why do it? I agree with the rights thing, but it takes time. Japan in the 50's was like that, by the 90's they had one of the highest standards of living around.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I wouldnt know about how bad they are. But the money that is saved with outsourcing is an indicator that people that do the jons overseas are terribly underpaid. Not to mention that they dont enjoy the same labour rights as we do.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but, are they not beter off with those jobs than the no jobs they had before hand, no farms, no hope. at least its some hope. not perfect, but a start. some of the sweatshops need a kick in the ass, but most overseas jobs are not that bad.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, December 28, 2008 5:35:54 PM | |
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Then I guess that the managers shouldnt bother with outsourcing in the first place.
The thing with rights above all takes organization and determination from those that need them. I dont know why dont the workers in the third world countries get organized and do it, but if they did, I can assure you that the stuff that goes on now with sweatsop and legal slave labour would have been washed away so soon you wouldnt even beleive it. And that would have been the right thing to do as well.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Sunday, December 28, 2008 10:45:58 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | they cant get paid the same though, otherwise how would you pay to ship the products to north america and europe? and if you dont make more, why do it? I agree with the rights thing, but it takes time. Japan in the 50's was like that, by the 90's they had one of the highest standards of living around.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I wouldnt know about how bad they are. But the money that is saved with outsourcing is an indicator that people that do the jons overseas are terribly underpaid. Not to mention that they dont enjoy the same labour rights as we do.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but, are they not beter off with those jobs than the no jobs they had before hand, no farms, no hope. at least its some hope. not perfect, but a start. some of the sweatshops need a kick in the ass, but most overseas jobs are not that bad.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Sunday, December 28, 2008 10:45:58 AM | |
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they cant get paid the same though, otherwise how would you pay to ship the products to north america and europe? and if you dont make more, why do it? I agree with the rights thing, but it takes time. Japan in the 50's was like that, by the 90's they had one of the highest standards of living around.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:33:08 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I wouldnt know about how bad they are. But the money that is saved with outsourcing is an indicator that people that do the jons overseas are terribly underpaid. Not to mention that they dont enjoy the same labour rights as we do.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but, are they not beter off with those jobs than the no jobs they had before hand, no farms, no hope. at least its some hope. not perfect, but a start. some of the sweatshops need a kick in the ass, but most overseas jobs are not that bad.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:33:08 AM | |
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I wouldnt know about how bad they are. But the money that is saved with outsourcing is an indicator that people that do the jons overseas are terribly underpaid. Not to mention that they dont enjoy the same labour rights as we do.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:22:23 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | but, are they not beter off with those jobs than the no jobs they had before hand, no farms, no hope. at least its some hope. not perfect, but a start. some of the sweatshops need a kick in the ass, but most overseas jobs are not that bad.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:31:05 AM | |
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Yeah, lol. Jesus can kiss my ass, I can run miles on water...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:13:50 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | see, we dont always disagree. I too have a beach then water that is in a form that can be walked upon by mere mortals
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Maybe in California it is. With our temperatures, Id have to bring an icepick to the beach.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | | Dive right in, the water's fine. Everyone has something to say and it all counts equally in my book. I think you summed it up perfectly if I'm reading you right. Creative mind + quality product = success ( reward ) Simple math to me. |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:29:26 AM | |
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Well, I guess we could squeeze in a word or two about the US supported juntas and totalitarian regimes as well. Not everything that the US does outside its borders is good.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
| | | spapad wrote: | | A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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| [_strat_] Sunday, December 28, 2008 7:27:40 AM | |
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I agree, they are not interchangable, and my mistake if I sometimes use them like they are. Communism: a classless, stateless society, with no private ownership over the means of production, and also an ideology that strives for that. Socialism: a movement that includes communism, anarchism, social democracy, and other similar ideologies. Thats how I generaly define and use the terms. And yes, ideology and real life practice are very different. Thats why I often say that the so-called communist countries arent and werent communist.
Now to our elections... As I pointed out, the parties that appeared on the elections were those that were on the winning side in the war. The right wing parties collaborated with the axis, and I see that as a good enough reason as to why they shouldnt be let to participate on those elections. Hell, they shouldnt participate in any elections since. It is well known what happened to Yugoslavia when the right wing nationalists came back to power in the late 80s.
I said "propaganda" because I think that much of what you say about communism comes from the anti-communist propaganda that is and was rampant in the US. No hard feelings, its just an impression that I get.
As for the creativity and weapons... While creating and designing weapons may be creative, we still have to keep in mind the purpose behind it. The AK-47 and the M-16 assault rifles are not hunting weapons. They were made with killing humans as their purpose, as is the case with nuclear weapons. Nuclear energy itself is not a military thing. It can be used for many purposes. But nuclear weapons really only have one purpose.
As for the nuclear bombing of Japan, I cant really say much. I dont know much about the war in the pacific, although I guess it could succed without nukes, or maybe by dropping them on military instead of civilian targets. IDK.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:39 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Ideology and real life practice are very far apart and we both know it. You also seem to use the terms Communism and Socialism interchangeably. They are not the same.
Let's see. The parties in the election were, as you stated, the Communitst Party, Social Democrates and Christian Socialists. Doesn't sound like much of a choice and the results were as to be expected. I think if you look around, you will find that those margins are to be expected in an "election" in which the Communist Party is a participant.
"Propaganda" ? I don't recall using that word. You're revealing yourself Comrade !
I agree on the subject of weapons being a waste of time, however the actual creativity that I love is usually not at that level. Normally, the creativity is in the theory not the application. Splitting the atom and nuclear power was genius. The military application is another matter. Let me pose this to you. Being that most people cannot see into the future, aside from Nostradamus ( nice little Priest reference ! ), how do you see the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan ? Did they help to end a war that was unprovoked by a surprise attack ? Was it the mis-use of a creative vision ? Something other ?
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | " Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:47:59 PM | |
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Sad but true 
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:44:38 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | It would be nice. Too many people ready to be offended, ready to be right, ready to hate in the name of a higher purpose.
| | | spapad wrote: | | Amen! 
Still with all the hostility in this world. Let peace reign someday!
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:44:38 PM | |
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It would be nice. Too many people ready to be offended, ready to be right, ready to hate in the name of a higher purpose.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:42:26 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Amen!
Still with all the hostility in this world. Let peace reign someday!
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:42:26 PM | |
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Amen!
Still with all the hostility in this world. Let peace reign someday!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:32:52 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:32:52 PM | |
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Or better said, hated by those that find out that freedom comes with a price tag. We paid for it with the lives of our own. If you can't get it done yourself, then you owe the people that gave their lives for your freedom. I'll say it again because it bears repeating . . . . NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE !
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:11:58 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:23:06 PM | |
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good CEO's are rare, good bartenders are more comon, good broom pushers even more comon
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:36:41 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | The company could have grown and it could have developed into a much better and fairer company than it is without Gates calling the shots in the first place. I understand that he is a good computer programmer. All fine and well. Imo, he should do that job and get his fair share for it. Thats it.
The thing is (as I believe I also said before) that the entire structure of any company (not just Microsoft or GM) is wrong, as is the entire economic system.
The thing about people that have skill in runnig things is... Yes they are limited. But good people are limited in any proffesion. Why is it that only the people that can run things get so much, as opposed to others? Well, because they run things. But why arent they limited in running things? Well, fuck knows.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | leaving aside the fact that no one (well almost no one) likes windows
replace gates early on, you get no where. everyone else loses their jobs. Replace gates today, dunno, might go ok. then again, to do that you have to hire someone from outside, someone with experience running a huge company, and with the skills to keep it going. they probably need a lot of programing knowledge also. take one of the department or product managers, make him CEO, and it wont work. I would give it a 1% chance.
we go back to supply and demand. the people with the skills, training, drive and ambition to be a major CEO are limited.just as gold is more expensive than iron, that which is rare is in demand.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | ...doing bussines as usual? Only of course, someone would pick up where Gates left, and they would be in the same situation.
Tho, of course, Gates can be credited with ideas that helped make Microsoft what it is today (for better or for worse). But again... The same question we went over and over again. Is he entitled to such a fortune just for the work he did? I dont think so.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | sure, but without gates, where are they? without any of the workers, he hires a different worker.
its not all about him, but he is a large chunk of it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I would imagine that he employed them as he went along. The fact here is that Microsoft (the name is allegedly inspired from Bill Gatess genitals) is an international corporation, that has its subsidiaries in practicly every country in the world, and does more than just develop new crap, but sells it, promotes it, provides service for it... ect. Even though Gates may have had the idea and did work in his field, there is still much more to Microsoft than just what he does or did.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:22:23 PM | |
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but, are they not beter off with those jobs than the no jobs they had before hand, no farms, no hope. at least its some hope. not perfect, but a start. some of the sweatshops need a kick in the ass, but most overseas jobs are not that bad.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:49:36 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:13:50 PM | |
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see, we dont always disagree. I too have a beach then water that is in a form that can be walked upon by mere mortals
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:52:54 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Maybe in California it is. With our temperatures, Id have to bring an icepick to the beach.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | | Dive right in, the water's fine. Everyone has something to say and it all counts equally in my book. I think you summed it up perfectly if I'm reading you right. Creative mind + quality product = success ( reward ) Simple math to me. |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:11:58 PM | |
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While that is true, we can not cut ourselves off. We are like the comic book hero. Feared by many, hated only by those who know we are comming for them. [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM)
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
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spapad wrote: |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 8:15:31 PM |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:54:02 PM | |
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Hurrah ! Another one of my pet peeves. The world seems to want to spite us, but when the "pit bull" is needed they don't hesitate to call or even blame us for not forseeing the need even if the call never came ! Protect the world, feed the world, but leave the world alone. NOBODY RIDES FOR FREE ! If the world wants to be left alone, leave the U.S. out of it and stop asking us to give "life and limb" for you and then spit on us and tell us to get out.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:48:08 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:39 PM | |
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Ideology and real life practice are very far apart and we both know it. You also seem to use the terms Communism and Socialism interchangeably. They are not the same.
Let's see. The parties in the election were, as you stated, the Communitst Party, Social Democrates and Christian Socialists. Doesn't sound like much of a choice and the results were as to be expected. I think if you look around, you will find that those margins are to be expected in an "election" in which the Communist Party is a participant.
"Propaganda" ? I don't recall using that word. You're revealing yourself Comrade !
I agree on the subject of weapons being a waste of time, however the actual creativity that I love is usually not at that level. Normally, the creativity is in the theory not the application. Splitting the atom and nuclear power was genius. The military application is another matter. Let me pose this to you. Being that most people cannot see into the future, aside from Nostradamus ( nice little Priest reference ! ), how do you see the dropping of the atomic bombs in Japan ? Did they help to end a war that was unprovoked by a surprise attack ? Was it the mis-use of a creative vision ? Something other ?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | " Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:48:08 PM | |
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A very interesting point of view from a place I have never been. You see, americans are dreadfuly aware that we live in a free country and we boast of it all the time, and go to other countries and generally make asses out of ourselves.
I have been abroad, like many of my friends on this site, and it is sad to find out that our aspect of us as Americans is seen so diffterent around the world becuase of our foreign policy mostly. We Americans don't know our foreign policy, we just live and watch news, that is slanted to our view.
We are also though, not to my happiness, the world's Pit Bull. ...........Something going on no one wants to get their hands dirty with but wants the job done, well, Hell Yeah~! Call the U.S. of A.!
With that said!
Yes we are blissfully ignorant about some things!
Yes we are obnoxious!
Yes we are proud even where others think we should not be!
BUT We as a collective, are a great country just like yours and any other country. I BIG PLACE built by idividuals who stand as a whole.
Love to all! [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
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TIMBONI wrote: |
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I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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Edited at: Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:50:03 PM |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:35:11 PM | |
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Now thats a thought... Nah. We only do that for minor offenses.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:22:52 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Timbo, well said! I enjoyed every word of that!
Strat, as for the Justin Timberlake punishment. May I opt for death by bamboo shoots being inserted under my fingernails?
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | " Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:33:49 PM | |
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Communism as a political ideology actualy supports full democratic decision making in regards to how busineses should be run. It is in the Manifesto, and has been advocated (although admitedly not actualy carried out as it should have been) by all socialist regimes so far.
And that was not a joke. I do not know the details for other parts of Yugoslavia (although it is a fact that the elections took place in all republics and both autonomous provinces), but in Slovenia the elections were held on the 11th November 1945. The parties were those that were on the winning side in WW2, and included the Communist Party, the Social Democrats and the Christian Socialists. Although I do not remeber the exact percentage of the vote, the Communist party won with well over 50% (come to think of it, it was higher even than that). Also, they were the first elections in our history where women were allowed to vote.
Do not think for a minute that just because you live in a so called "free country", that there is no propaganda. Infact the anti-communist propaganda in the USA is something that even Goebbels would have been proud of.
Moving on... As far as Im concerned, any minute spent on designing, manufacturing and above all using weapons is a minute wasted. Shame that the people who do it always think that they should use it as well, making us all inseczre and threatened.
And unions... Was it their idea? Did they come up with it? Not bloody likely. What I find much more likely is that the CEOs and managers didnt want to give up what would have been a small part of their spoils, and instead moved the factories to China.
And as I said, creativity can be good or bad, depending on how we use it, so I agree on the atomic energy bit.
Accordingly can be difficult to decide, I know. I like to compare it to freedom. You only get as much as you can without interfering in somebody elses. I guess this should apply to dealing the profit as well? That is something that should be thought on. Though right now not by me, because I will be going to bed shortly. So, if I am MIA, that means good night, and see you tomorrow.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | " Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:22:52 PM | |
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Timbo, well said! I enjoyed every word of that!
Strat, as for the Justin Timberlake punishment. May I opt for death by bamboo shoots being inserted under my fingernails?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | " Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:56 PM | |
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I am mercifull. I will let you off with only a fifth of the punishment. You will only listen to Justin Timberlake CDs... And youll be loving it!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:01:49 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | Im on my knees sir! .................PLEASE! Have Mercy!..................Not the N'Sync CDs! ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!! Anihilated!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Its "The Great Socialist Federal Soviet Democratic Peoples Republic of Judas Priest", for your information.
Now, of to the gulag with you... "Guards, prepare the N´Sync CDs!"
| | | spapad wrote: | | | LONG LIVE THE PEOPLES' REPUBLIC OF PRIEST! LMAO! |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:11:20 PM | |
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" Blue collar " is a term used to describe the working class. The "get your hands dirty" portion of the workforce.
Elections ? That's funny ! You always have that sense of humor. I think that aside from knowing our history, we need a little more realism and honesty. Communism has NEVER supported open and honest elections.
"Lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requirement for the musician to make good music" ONE HUNDRED PERCENT AGREED.
Kalashnikov's design of the AK-47 was extremely creative. A "blue collar" weapon and deserving of all the credit he has received. It's influence being positive or negative is perspective.
This is where we disagree the most. Creativity is EVERYTHING. It is ideas . . . invention . . . something from nothing ! Atomic energy was an amazing discovery that has changed the world, both for better and worse. It creates power for lighting, heat, etc. It also has the power to take lives. The idea has no contribution until the user decides how to use it.
Now to "how it is used": outsourcing. We have come full circle. UNIONS ! Unions created outsourcing. They created an atmosphere where there is no loyalty ( yes, I already know the return fire but if we are at unions we are beyond the point prior to their creation ) The pendulum swung the other direction and the employees ( unions ) became the ogre in the workplace "creating" the necessity to find a cheaper workforce in order to supply the same product at an affordable price. It's a vicious circle. The worker wants more to afford wants, the company charges more for the goods to pay the employee, the prices of goods go up and worker want more to afford them, etc . . .
Lastly, I would like to know what you consider accordingly and who decides that ? Here, the market decides. If one is willing to pay for it, it is "accordingly". If the market considers it out of line, purchases cease and the product either dies or the price is adjusted to suit the willingness of the consumer to buy.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:49:36 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 7:01:49 PM | |
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Im on my knees sir! .................PLEASE! Have Mercy!..................Not the N'Sync CDs! ARRRRGGGHHHHH!!! Anihilated!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:59:34 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Its "The Great Socialist Federal Soviet Democratic Peoples Republic of Judas Priest", for your information.
Now, of to the gulag with you... "Guards, prepare the N´Sync CDs!"
| | | spapad wrote: | | | LONG LIVE THE PEOPLES' REPUBLIC OF PRIEST! LMAO! |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:59:34 PM | |
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Its "The Great Socialist Federal Soviet Democratic Peoples Republic of Judas Priest", for your information.
Now, of to the gulag with you... "Guards, prepare the N´Sync CDs!"
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by spapad from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:55:41 PM)| | | spapad wrote: | | | LONG LIVE THE PEOPLES' REPUBLIC OF PRIEST! LMAO! |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:55:41 PM | |
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| LONG LIVE THE PEOPLES' REPUBLIC OF PRIEST! LMAO! |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:53:28 PM | |
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Yes sir, that is right!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:51:33 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | | Dive right in, the water's fine. Everyone has something to say and it all counts equally in my book. I think you summed it up perfectly if I'm reading you right. Creative mind + quality product = success ( reward ) Simple math to me. |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:52:54 PM | |
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Maybe in California it is. With our temperatures, Id have to bring an icepick to the beach.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:51:33 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | | Dive right in, the water's fine. Everyone has something to say and it all counts equally in my book. I think you summed it up perfectly if I'm reading you right. Creative mind + quality product = success ( reward ) Simple math to me. |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:51:33 PM | |
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| Dive right in, the water's fine. Everyone has something to say and it all counts equally in my book. I think you summed it up perfectly if I'm reading you right. Creative mind + quality product = success ( reward ) Simple math to me. |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:49:36 PM | |
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First of all, could you please explain "blue collar"? First time I hear of that term.
Well, the communist party had a very wide public support, that was expressed in very well documented and trasparent elections right after WW2, and with the popluar support during the war itself. But I think its better that we leave this subject behind. Im sure that we each know the history of our nations.
As for Priest, I dont exactly know how they actualy do business. I know how business is done in my area of expertise, and Im coming out of that position. Tho I will say that lavishly rewarding the musician is not a requierment for the musician to make good music.
Ok, creativity... First of all we need to make clear what creativity are we talking about. Mikhail Kalashnikov was very creative and inovative when he designed the AK-47, but that doesnt necesarily mean that his invention was a positive contribution to the humanity. Infact, it was quite the opposite, as is with practicly every weapon that was, is, or will be designed. What Im basicly trying to say is that creativity is not an inherently good thing. It entirely depends on how it is used and for what. A business example: outsourcing. I guess that when ot first came along it was creative. Move the work to somewhere where its cheaper, save money, higher profits, the CEO bags more money in rewards. Workers in developed countries lost their jobs, while workers in 3rd world countries got jobs... That are more similar to slavery than employment.
Sure creativity can be used for "good", or so to speak, but we must be carefull about what is good, for whom and why is it good. And reward it accordingly, instead of lavishly.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:59:42 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [spapad] Saturday, December 27, 2008 6:48:18 PM | |
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This is like wadding into the water and finding it a bit deep! Halford manages his business like a good business man. I makes every penny count and I am glad to be one of his customers.
Priest, as a whole have the reputation and the craft to put together things no record company with any forsight is going to decline. A Grammy Nomination this year.
As for the rest, It sounds like, "we will drive the peoples truck, carrying the peoples message, for as long as the peoples gas holds out. LOL
Sorry, little shallow on Politico! |
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| [TIMBONI] Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:59:42 PM | |
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I have to say that this is incredibly interesting to see how the same subject is viewed from different perspectives. I understand your point about the work environment being created by and serving the community without the need for an individuals desires for greatness. It's a very "blue collar" view as we would call it.
I'm not exactly so sure that the entrance and exit of communism was as voluntary as you would like to believe and there are ALWAYS foreign governments influencing EVERYTHING. No matter what country you are in. Even here.
As for the Priest, I give them far more credit than you. I'm no expert, but I've played "the game" at the elementary level. At this point in their career, the record company had better be the ones serving them or they have done something drastically wrong. Look at Rob. He has made bold moves to gain as much control of his "product" as possible. Look at how he distributes his music, mostly via download eliminating the "middle man".
The one thing I think you are not allowing to enter the equation is creativity. This is one of the primary aspects of a capitalist economy and that is why it can be so richly rewarded.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Thursday, December 25, 2008 8:56:44 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 5:36:41 PM | |
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The company could have grown and it could have developed into a much better and fairer company than it is without Gates calling the shots in the first place. I understand that he is a good computer programmer. All fine and well. Imo, he should do that job and get his fair share for it. Thats it.
The thing is (as I believe I also said before) that the entire structure of any company (not just Microsoft or GM) is wrong, as is the entire economic system.
The thing about people that have skill in runnig things is... Yes they are limited. But good people are limited in any proffesion. Why is it that only the people that can run things get so much, as opposed to others? Well, because they run things. But why arent they limited in running things? Well, fuck knows.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:27:53 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | leaving aside the fact that no one (well almost no one) likes windows
replace gates early on, you get no where. everyone else loses their jobs. Replace gates today, dunno, might go ok. then again, to do that you have to hire someone from outside, someone with experience running a huge company, and with the skills to keep it going. they probably need a lot of programing knowledge also. take one of the department or product managers, make him CEO, and it wont work. I would give it a 1% chance.
we go back to supply and demand. the people with the skills, training, drive and ambition to be a major CEO are limited.just as gold is more expensive than iron, that which is rare is in demand.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | ...doing bussines as usual? Only of course, someone would pick up where Gates left, and they would be in the same situation.
Tho, of course, Gates can be credited with ideas that helped make Microsoft what it is today (for better or for worse). But again... The same question we went over and over again. Is he entitled to such a fortune just for the work he did? I dont think so.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | sure, but without gates, where are they? without any of the workers, he hires a different worker.
its not all about him, but he is a large chunk of it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I would imagine that he employed them as he went along. The fact here is that Microsoft (the name is allegedly inspired from Bill Gatess genitals) is an international corporation, that has its subsidiaries in practicly every country in the world, and does more than just develop new crap, but sells it, promotes it, provides service for it... ect. Even though Gates may have had the idea and did work in his field, there is still much more to Microsoft than just what he does or did.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [Head banger] Saturday, December 27, 2008 11:27:53 AM | |
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leaving aside the fact that no one (well almost no one) likes windows
replace gates early on, you get no where. everyone else loses their jobs. Replace gates today, dunno, might go ok. then again, to do that you have to hire someone from outside, someone with experience running a huge company, and with the skills to keep it going. they probably need a lot of programing knowledge also. take one of the department or product managers, make him CEO, and it wont work. I would give it a 1% chance.
we go back to supply and demand. the people with the skills, training, drive and ambition to be a major CEO are limited.just as gold is more expensive than iron, that which is rare is in demand.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:32:51 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | ...doing bussines as usual? Only of course, someone would pick up where Gates left, and they would be in the same situation.
Tho, of course, Gates can be credited with ideas that helped make Microsoft what it is today (for better or for worse). But again... The same question we went over and over again. Is he entitled to such a fortune just for the work he did? I dont think so.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | sure, but without gates, where are they? without any of the workers, he hires a different worker.
its not all about him, but he is a large chunk of it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I would imagine that he employed them as he went along. The fact here is that Microsoft (the name is allegedly inspired from Bill Gatess genitals) is an international corporation, that has its subsidiaries in practicly every country in the world, and does more than just develop new crap, but sells it, promotes it, provides service for it... ect. Even though Gates may have had the idea and did work in his field, there is still much more to Microsoft than just what he does or did.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [_strat_] Saturday, December 27, 2008 10:32:51 AM | |
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...doing bussines as usual? Only of course, someone would pick up where Gates left, and they would be in the same situation.
Tho, of course, Gates can be credited with ideas that helped make Microsoft what it is today (for better or for worse). But again... The same question we went over and over again. Is he entitled to such a fortune just for the work he did? I dont think so.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Friday, December 26, 2008 9:55:55 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | sure, but without gates, where are they? without any of the workers, he hires a different worker.
its not all about him, but he is a large chunk of it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I would imagine that he employed them as he went along. The fact here is that Microsoft (the name is allegedly inspired from Bill Gatess genitals) is an international corporation, that has its subsidiaries in practicly every country in the world, and does more than just develop new crap, but sells it, promotes it, provides service for it... ect. Even though Gates may have had the idea and did work in his field, there is still much more to Microsoft than just what he does or did.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [Head banger] Friday, December 26, 2008 9:55:55 PM | |
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sure, but without gates, where are they? without any of the workers, he hires a different worker.
its not all about him, but he is a large chunk of it.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Friday, December 26, 2008 4:38:40 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I would imagine that he employed them as he went along. The fact here is that Microsoft (the name is allegedly inspired from Bill Gatess genitals) is an international corporation, that has its subsidiaries in practicly every country in the world, and does more than just develop new crap, but sells it, promotes it, provides service for it... ect. Even though Gates may have had the idea and did work in his field, there is still much more to Microsoft than just what he does or did.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [_strat_] Friday, December 26, 2008 4:38:40 PM | |
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I would imagine that he employed them as he went along. The fact here is that Microsoft (the name is allegedly inspired from Bill Gatess genitals) is an international corporation, that has its subsidiaries in practicly every country in the world, and does more than just develop new crap, but sells it, promotes it, provides service for it... ect. Even though Gates may have had the idea and did work in his field, there is still much more to Microsoft than just what he does or did.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Thursday, December 25, 2008 6:16:23 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [Head banger] Thursday, December 25, 2008 6:16:23 PM | |
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but he didnt have legions of workers. and if it sucks, he must be briliant to convince everyone to buy it.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:53:28 PM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Yeah right. The guy makes a new system that is exactly like the old one, except it crashes more often, and thats why he should get billions. And of course, he has legions of employees all over the world that do his bidding for him.
He is a hypocrate, thats what he is.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | bill gates, and he gave it all away!
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| [Head banger] Thursday, December 25, 2008 6:15:50 PM | |
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| [_strat_] Thursday, December 25, 2008 8:56:44 AM | |
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Well, I still think that it is very much correct. The enviroment is created by all the people that work for it. A company would not be able to hire new employees, if it wasnt for the old employees making enough profit to make it possible. Now, I know that it had to start somewhere, with some guy who just started a business and employed an assistant, or something similar, but the further we go from there, the more alienated the leadership will become with the rest of the employees. My work enviroment was not created by the CEO of my company. It was created by the people that worked in a particular section of the company that decided that they need another employee to get the work done. And with my work I am repaying for it.
Now, you totaly missed the next point. We went under "communist control" as you put it, volountarily, just as we left it volountarily, in both cases with certain sacrifices and a strong popular support, without the intervention of "foreign governments". But that is beside the point, really. What I was trying to illustrate is that there are alternatives to capitalist mode of production, and we had one of it, that was working well. Most of the companies that still form the bulk of our economy today were not created in private hands. They were created in a socialist, state-planned economy. They were created not because of "one mans dream of greatness" or anything like that. They were established when and where there was need for them, and they were developed and expanded accordingly. And more importantly, they were not created by one man that would make great risks or sacrifices. They were made collectively, and served the entire society, instead of one mans pocket. Im also absolutely sure that we are not the only such example. They can be found all over the former eastern bloc, even in the "evil empire", the former USSR. Now, say what you want about communism and red scare, and stuff like that, but that aproach to economy is better than just letting the busineses to do what they want, and then throw billions at them when they are in trouble.
If anything, Judas Priest serve a corporation that is their record company, and it is exactly because of the greed of the record companies that we have to pay such ridiculously high prices for the music.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by TIMBONI from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:03:36 PM)| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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| [TIMBONI] Wednesday, December 24, 2008 7:03:36 PM | |
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Unfortunately, it would be the fifth time you have incorrectly pointed out that. It is NOT the poor that have created the environment in which they work. It is the "rich" or at least someone who is able to "risk" that has done that. You claim is was not the CEO that took the risk. In some instances you are correct, in others you are not. How big of a company are we speaking ? In most of the environments that you and I might earn a living, the CEO is the one that took the risk. We don't all work for IBM, GM or other such initialed companies.
There are always risks. It's just a matter of who took them. In your case, your country took them. Along with the backing of all the countries that did not want your country to come under communist control. Do not for one minute think that there was no risk. It was just not by an individual, it was by multiple governments. I agree that there are many alternatives to capitalism, but let's be clear when we speak.
By the way, I would check carefully. Although I have not checked myself, I would almost be willing to bet that Judas Priest is a corporation. I agree that, to make a point, I stretched the subject but at this point Judas Priest is not just artistic. They took a chance ( risk ) and are reaping the rewards. They had an idea and are reaping the rewards. They employ a workforce and do not necessarily share their income equally with that workforce even though they would be back in the clubs without them.
Think ! It might not be what you want to hear, but it's a perfect comparison !
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Wednesday, December 24, 2008 5:08:17 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Youre not reading well, in that case. "For no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have"? I say that the poor create what the rich have. I think this has to be about the fifth time I made that point in the course of this discussion.
How does the employer judge what we earn? If anything the employer judges what we will get. There is a massive difference between the two. We can, as you say, accept it or not. But the fact is that we need jobs. And if every employer is only willing to give us so much... What power of choice do we actualy have? Only the power to pick the lesser of many evils. Thank the unions for their historic role, since its because of them and because of the two centuries worth of class struggles that there are at least some minimums that an employer has to fulfill! They cannot give us less than the minimal wage, cannot force us to work longer than the maximum work hours, and cannot fire us for looking at them the wrong way. But outside of that, its still the game of supply and demand... But with people instead of products.
Risk... Ok, someone took the risk. It can be done without it, but lets forget about that for a line or two. Was it the CEO of a big and well established corporation that took the risk to create it? No. Was it the great grandson that inherited the business? No. Sure, some people had to take risks, but then again, how do you value that risk in terms of money? Not to mention that we can do it without risks. We established our entire post-WW2 economy within the framweork of state planning. No one took big loans, no one risked his/her home, yet we developed big and succesfull companies, that are still alive and well! There are plenty alternatives to the capitalist economy, and the capitalist way of doing business.
Judas Priest are not a corporation. They are a band, and their greatness comes from skill and musicianship. You took my statement well out of context here, since I think you know perfectly well what sort of "greatness" I was refering to, since we were tlaking about economy and big corporations.
| | | TIMBONI wrote: | | I really cannot believe what I am reading. If I understand you correctly, you want Robin Hood. Take from the rich and give to the poor for no other reason than that the poor want what the rich have. You state that the working class " should be getting what they earn". Who judges what they earn. I'll tell you who. The employer that hired them at a certain wage for a certain job. The employee either accepts this or not. The power is actually with the worker at this point. If the worker takes the job, DON'T COMPLAIN !
You also state that "upper clases that get rediculously more than they earn". It's not entirely about "earning". It's also about risk. I believe HB has already gone into this, but to cut to the chase it's gambling. Someone risked their money, home, savings, future, etc on an idea and they deserve the lion share of the return for that. Their willingness to risk themselves for this return created the jobs for the workers. If people did not risk, the jobs would not exist.
Now let's get to "stiffling greatness . . . why the fuck not ? ". Let's make it obvious. We are all on a Judas Priest site chatting. This site would not exist because the band would not exist. They would never, AND I DO MEAN NEVER, have gone through what they did if they were required to share it all with those that did not experience those sacrifices with them. Without the possibility of great reward, there will never be any great sacrifice. Thus we all become mediocre and plain and the world SUCKS for all of us.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Ok, leave if you want, but I will still answer this, and maybe someone else will pick up the flag...
THAT is terribly falacious. The whole point that I was making about the subject of capitalism is that we (or you or me, whichever way you put it), should be getting what we earn. Not to share it with the upper classes that get ridicilously more than they earn, since more often than not they earn nothing at all. What "greater good"? What "plight of the struggling labourer"? Sure, both these things could be used to describe socialism, as something which aims to achieve the "greater good" of all by fighting the "plight of the struggling labourer", but its really down to we getting what we earn. The difference between the two of us here would be that you think that capitalism can give that opportunity, while I do not, and I think I listed plenty of reasons for that. "Spreading the wealth" is imo a part of this, for reasons that I have already presented as well.
"Stiffling greatness"... Why the fuck not? If the great cannot be great without the help of mediocre ( as is the case)... Should they be great at all? And of course, how do you generaly define "better"? Is someone that is prepared to take risks that endanger him/herself and tons of other people really great... Or just plain irresponsible and dumb? And, when does one accomplish greatness? Is it when one has a huge corporation? What is so great about that?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well, I believe I will jump out of this now. Does not seem to be getting anywhere and I think BS hit it right on the head. You see, I do not care about the "greater good", either! I care about me. I went to school for me. I spent twenty years in business for me. I sacrificed for me. The thing about all this talk on socialism is that it stifles greatness. Spreading the wealth is a fine sentiment but it give no incentive to the great to be great. I could not care less about the "plight of the struggling laborer". We all have our lot in life.
Now, I realize that last comment opens me up for a bunch of nastiness but I suppose I will accept that. The truly great men (and women) in the world are better. They strive to be more. To accomplish more. They strive for greatness. Some people do not have these lofty aspirations. They are content to be mediocre. Worse, there are those that would have the few be great and the mediocre be allowed to reap the benefits. No thank you. I do not care for what one person believes is "right". That makes NO difference to me. Fairness can go that way as well. If I am better, and I produce more and I accomplish greatness, I do not see why I should share that with a slug. I want more. I earned every bit. I stood above the others. I took the risk. That is how it is. If a company recognizes that and rewards me, that is just as it should be.
I do not advocate "firing" someone because I find a guy that can do his job "10 minutes faster". I advocate hiring that faster guy, too! Now I have TWO guys working and , with any luck, the slower one will find motivation in competition. If not, he can stay in his position so long as he DOES HIS JOB!! The faster guy may get promoted, who knows? I suppose it depends on how valuble time is to my company! As long as you are doing what you are paid to do, you should feel relatively safe. In difficult times, the faster guy might be more valuble? This is business not a contest to save people's feelings. Don't like that? OPEN YOUR OWN BUSINESS and do it YOUR way.
Edited at: Tuesday, December 23, 2008 8:32:14 AM |
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