| [Soylentgreen4u] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 12:20:22 PM | |
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FIRST OF ALL I WILL SAY "GOOD AFTERNOON",BECAUSE  "I AM CANADIAN AND I'M ALSO
POLITE"... ...
NOW THAT'S OUTTA THE WAY,WE CAN CONTINUE...YOUUUUUUU BEDWETTING TINY-BRAINED
WIPER OF OTHER PEOPLE'S BOTTOMS!... ...YOU START WITH:"SEE IF I CAN DO THIS WITHOUT A TON OF BACKREADING?"...WHY NOT START WITH BABYSTEPS FIRST?...I WAS WONDERING IF YOU CAN CHEW GUM AND WALK AT THE SAME TIME,YOU MALODOUROUS
GUN-RUNNING REPUBLICAN!.......AT LEAST YOU ADMIT YOU'RE AN OLD MAN,WELL YOUR BRAIN IS SHOWING THAT ANYWAY!  ...YOU CAN'T WIN...WE WILL CRUSH YOU LIKE BUG!!!...
SO YOU DON'T NEED TRADE WITH CHINA,WHO YOUR COUNTRY ROUTINELY CRITICIZES ON YOUR NETWORKS,YET YOUR ADMINISTRATION KISSES THEIR ASS IN THE NAME OF $...I NOTICE YOU LEFT OUT MY COUNTRY AS FAR AS NOT NEEDING TRADE..Hmmmm...AS WELL YOU
SHOULD:
-LAST YEAR IN THE FIRST 11 MONTHS OF TRADE WITH CANADA= $560,000,000,000
-LAST YEAR IN THE FIRST 11 MONTHS OF TRADE WITH CHINA=$379,000,000,000
....SO THE U.S. WILL BE JUST FINE WITHOUT THIS TRADE YOU SAY?...IF YOU SAY SO...
OHHH... ONE MORE THING...ARE YOU CALLING THE FRENCH WIMPS?...ANSWER THAT,I DARE YOU!........TAKE YOUR TIME,WHENEVER YOU GET BACK FROM THE STORE WITH A FRESH BATCH OF DEPENDS,FOR YOUR SOILED, LOATHSOME,SPOTTY BEHIND!...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:37:23 AM)| |  | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK, let's see if I can do this without a ton of "backreading:,,,,,,
If "push came to shove" as far as China is concerned, I think we would win. Yes, I believe we could do it but it would depend on who is making the decisions. For example, if we had say a "Clinton" in office, NO. We would stand around playing grab ass until the first Chinese nuke leveled a coastal city then we would end up as strat mentioned. Now, if we had a "Reagan" at the helm (please see Lybia for example) we would stomp the rice out of that place before the first junk could leave port.
As I have said MANY times before, I am not interested in the "little guy". Capitalsim works. It is profitable. It has made me a very comfortable old man and that is that. All of this whining about the poor little countires that get taken advantage of by the big, mean US...BAH!! Too friggin bad! Quit your whining and develop "the bomb"..Israel did!! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Oh boy! I can smell the smoke coming out of strat's ears..) HAAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!
Finally, you cannnnnnnucks have land that is nothing but a place that we use to keep the cold! HA!!!!!!!! And the French ARE there and they DO push you guys around! How embarrassing must THAT be?? Some little frenchie in a beret with one of those tiny, pencil mustaches ordering you guys around ....HAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! "Mon fi, geet mee a Pepsee avec a moooose saaanweeech!! Oh, aaan don't forgeeet zee FRENCH fries..." BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!! |
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| [Deep Freeze] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 8:37:23 AM | |
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OK, let's see if I can do this without a ton of "backreading:,,,,,,
If "push came to shove" as far as China is concerned, I think we would win. Yes, I believe we could do it but it would depend on who is making the decisions. For example, if we had say a "Clinton" in office, NO. We would stand around playing grab ass until the first Chinese nuke leveled a coastal city then we would end up as strat mentioned. Now, if we had a "Reagan" at the helm (please see Lybia for example) we would stomp the rice out of that place before the first junk could leave port.
As I have said MANY times before, I am not interested in the "little guy". Capitalsim works. It is profitable. It has made me a very comfortable old man and that is that. All of this whining about the poor little countires that get taken advantage of by the big, mean US...BAH!! Too friggin bad! Quit your whining and develop "the bomb"..Israel did!! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (Oh boy! I can smell the smoke coming out of strat's ears..) HAAAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!
Finally, you cannnnnnnucks have land that is nothing but a place that we use to keep the cold! HA!!!!!!!! And the French ARE there and they DO push you guys around! How embarrassing must THAT be?? Some little frenchie in a beret with one of those tiny, pencil mustaches ordering you guys around ....HAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!! "Mon fi, geet mee a Pepsee avec a moooose saaanweeech!! Oh, aaan don't forgeeet zee FRENCH fries..." BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!! |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:29:26 AM | |
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Lol.... Yeah, that it could. Nuking would be more simple, but I guess your plan isnt bad either. And it could serve as an inspiration for a kickass computer game too.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:27:27 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | true, the defender has the advantage, and definatly lets not find out.
could resolve the population issues of the world in short order.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | True, but whoever would be the attacker would have to bring the army to the enemy... And with the US navy, I think the US has the upper hand here.
Also, the defender would have an advantage. IDK. Hopefuly, we wont find out.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | eliminate the nukes, and forget that there are losers in every war. forget economics also, just a straight up war. the ants would win. sure technology is nice, but china could field a 300 million person army if nessesary.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | In case of US vs. China, there cant really be a winner. The US has the technology and the experience, China has numbers and an almost ant-like mentality. And both have nukes. Once China starts getting out of its borders, and acting the same way the US does (a matter of time, imo) we will have a new cold war. Pity, this time we are already choosing sides, instead of being nice and neutral like we were the last time.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | my point wasnt actualy about america, it was protectionist trade policies. I put forth that they hurt the country seeking protection just as much as those they trade with. long term, to be successfull, you need more successfull partners. is it better to get half a 8 inch pizza or a quarter of a 16 inch pizza. now remember your geometry.
BTW, do you think your armed forces could take down china if push came to shove? you could nuke eachother into oblivion, but thats lose lose. could you win?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there. |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:27:27 AM | |
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true, the defender has the advantage, and definatly lets not find out.
could resolve the population issues of the world in short order.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:22:36 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | True, but whoever would be the attacker would have to bring the army to the enemy... And with the US navy, I think the US has the upper hand here.
Also, the defender would have an advantage. IDK. Hopefuly, we wont find out.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | eliminate the nukes, and forget that there are losers in every war. forget economics also, just a straight up war. the ants would win. sure technology is nice, but china could field a 300 million person army if nessesary.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | In case of US vs. China, there cant really be a winner. The US has the technology and the experience, China has numbers and an almost ant-like mentality. And both have nukes. Once China starts getting out of its borders, and acting the same way the US does (a matter of time, imo) we will have a new cold war. Pity, this time we are already choosing sides, instead of being nice and neutral like we were the last time.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | my point wasnt actualy about america, it was protectionist trade policies. I put forth that they hurt the country seeking protection just as much as those they trade with. long term, to be successfull, you need more successfull partners. is it better to get half a 8 inch pizza or a quarter of a 16 inch pizza. now remember your geometry.
BTW, do you think your armed forces could take down china if push came to shove? you could nuke eachother into oblivion, but thats lose lose. could you win?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there. |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:26:16 AM | |
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thats not because of unions, its because of the free market that in the more developed countries people get more and have more rights
you see, the more jobs there are, the more companies need the workers, and skilled ones at that. in a place with low employement, they know they can abuse people and pay them less, a union wont help, someone else will cross the line to work. Always, the free marked decides, based on scarcity. for the worker, they improve their situation by impriving their skills. for a country, they improve their situation by creating more jobs and wealth. money and work lead to freedom, not slavery towards a union or comunism.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:11:03 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, thats how it is. Not just in sweatshops and third world countries. Thats how labour markets work. The person that is prepared to work the longest hours, for the smallest possible wage, with minimum allowed rights... Gets the job. The only difference between us (as in the "developed world") and them (as in the "developing world") is that we have a more organised labour movement (and in our case it is the legacy of socialism), and laws that guarantee certain minimums and maximums. The employer cannot give you less than the minimal wage. He cannot force you to work longer than the law says. The principal is the same as in sweatshops, tho, only they dont have any law-enforced bottom lines. There the bottom line is bare survival.
And quite frankly... If the choice is slavery or playing on an uneven field, I choose the uneven field. And in any case, free trade as it is applied today, leads to slavery, there can be no doubt about it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | ...oh, strat...I've watched investigations into Wal Mart and how the products end up on the shelves...not only to they pit other countries against each other in bidding wars for labor, but then they pit the workers against each other to drive costs down even more...it's very sad...and it's all legal in these countries because their governments don't care how they get the work just so long as they get it...I've watched people get beat, attack each other, fired because someone walks in the door and says they can work for 5¢ less a day...it's dehumanizing...but you'll never see any of that in a Wal Mart ad...and this is just one example, I'm not even getting into 'sweat shops'...ppl providing cheap labor to work off debts in exchange for work visa's...you won't see that legally happening in our borders!!!...and those that do face harsh penalties, jail time, deportation if applicable...this is a crux to free trade...America(n) (policy) can't and won't accept that, and 'her' ppl find it a tragedy...this way of doing business is why I claim an un-even playing field (among others)!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I sure can say it, and it wouldnt be the first time I did it in here. We get back to the capitalist system, and its implementation on a global level, especialy in a very unevenly developed world.
Now, what you probably mean is that Wal-Mart doesnt have anything "made in USA" on its shelves - but the companies that produce it are American. 1$ a week stuff - just like you said yourself. Much the same here. I would bet my life that the computer Im using right now was made somewhere in Southeast Asia. Screw the quality of life - the bosses dont care about it. They never worked a day themselves, never had to live with a limited amount of basic neccesities... They dont understand, and if they did they probably wouldnt give a shit anyway. (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM)
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ronhartsell wrote: |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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Edited at: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:04:52 AM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:22:36 AM | |
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True, but whoever would be the attacker would have to bring the army to the enemy... And with the US navy, I think the US has the upper hand here.
Also, the defender would have an advantage. IDK. Hopefuly, we wont find out.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:16:19 AM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | eliminate the nukes, and forget that there are losers in every war. forget economics also, just a straight up war. the ants would win. sure technology is nice, but china could field a 300 million person army if nessesary.
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | In case of US vs. China, there cant really be a winner. The US has the technology and the experience, China has numbers and an almost ant-like mentality. And both have nukes. Once China starts getting out of its borders, and acting the same way the US does (a matter of time, imo) we will have a new cold war. Pity, this time we are already choosing sides, instead of being nice and neutral like we were the last time.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | my point wasnt actualy about america, it was protectionist trade policies. I put forth that they hurt the country seeking protection just as much as those they trade with. long term, to be successfull, you need more successfull partners. is it better to get half a 8 inch pizza or a quarter of a 16 inch pizza. now remember your geometry.
BTW, do you think your armed forces could take down china if push came to shove? you could nuke eachother into oblivion, but thats lose lose. could you win?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there. |
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| [Head banger] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 7:16:19 AM | |
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eliminate the nukes, and forget that there are losers in every war. forget economics also, just a straight up war. the ants would win. sure technology is nice, but china could field a 300 million person army if nessesary.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:14:51 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | In case of US vs. China, there cant really be a winner. The US has the technology and the experience, China has numbers and an almost ant-like mentality. And both have nukes. Once China starts getting out of its borders, and acting the same way the US does (a matter of time, imo) we will have a new cold war. Pity, this time we are already choosing sides, instead of being nice and neutral like we were the last time.
| | | Head banger wrote: | | my point wasnt actualy about america, it was protectionist trade policies. I put forth that they hurt the country seeking protection just as much as those they trade with. long term, to be successfull, you need more successfull partners. is it better to get half a 8 inch pizza or a quarter of a 16 inch pizza. now remember your geometry.
BTW, do you think your armed forces could take down china if push came to shove? you could nuke eachother into oblivion, but thats lose lose. could you win?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there. |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:30:03 AM | |
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You too. Damn time zones... I will be leaving work in two hours!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:27:47 AM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | ...speaking of which, I must leave for work myself...but I'm with on that!!!...more later, have a good one!!...
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, thats how it is. Not just in sweatshops and third world countries. Thats how labour markets work. The person that is prepared to work the longest hours, for the smallest possible wage, with minimum allowed rights... Gets the job. The only difference between us (as in the "developed world") and them (as in the "developing world") is that we have a more organised labour movement (and in our case it is the legacy of socialism), and laws that guarantee certain minimums and maximums. The employer cannot give you less than the minimal wage. He cannot force you to work longer than the law says. The principal is the same as in sweatshops, tho, only they dont have any law-enforced bottom lines. There the bottom line is bare survival.
And quite frankly... If the choice is slavery or playing on an uneven field, I choose the uneven field. And in any case, free trade as it is applied today, leads to slavery, there can be no doubt about it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | ...oh, strat...I've watched investigations into Wal Mart and how the products end up on the shelves...not only to they pit other countries against each other in bidding wars for labor, but then they pit the workers against each other to drive costs down even more...it's very sad...and it's all legal in these countries because their governments don't care how they get the work just so long as they get it...I've watched people get beat, attack each other, fired because someone walks in the door and says they can work for 5¢ less a day...it's dehumanizing...but you'll never see any of that in a Wal Mart ad...and this is just one example, I'm not even getting into 'sweat shops'...ppl providing cheap labor to work off debts in exchange for work visa's...you won't see that legally happening in our borders!!!...and those that do face harsh penalties, jail time, deportation if applicable...this is a crux to free trade...America(n) (policy) can't and won't accept that, and 'her' ppl find it a tragedy...this way of doing business is why I claim an un-even playing field (among others)!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I sure can say it, and it wouldnt be the first time I did it in here. We get back to the capitalist system, and its implementation on a global level, especialy in a very unevenly developed world.
Now, what you probably mean is that Wal-Mart doesnt have anything "made in USA" on its shelves - but the companies that produce it are American. 1$ a week stuff - just like you said yourself. Much the same here. I would bet my life that the computer Im using right now was made somewhere in Southeast Asia. Screw the quality of life - the bosses dont care about it. They never worked a day themselves, never had to live with a limited amount of basic neccesities... They dont understand, and if they did they probably wouldnt give a shit anyway. (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM)
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ronhartsell wrote: |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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Edited at: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:04:52 AM |
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| [ron h] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:27:47 AM | |
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...speaking of which, I must leave for work myself...but I'm with on that!!!...more later, have a good one!!...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:11:03 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, thats how it is. Not just in sweatshops and third world countries. Thats how labour markets work. The person that is prepared to work the longest hours, for the smallest possible wage, with minimum allowed rights... Gets the job. The only difference between us (as in the "developed world") and them (as in the "developing world") is that we have a more organised labour movement (and in our case it is the legacy of socialism), and laws that guarantee certain minimums and maximums. The employer cannot give you less than the minimal wage. He cannot force you to work longer than the law says. The principal is the same as in sweatshops, tho, only they dont have any law-enforced bottom lines. There the bottom line is bare survival.
And quite frankly... If the choice is slavery or playing on an uneven field, I choose the uneven field. And in any case, free trade as it is applied today, leads to slavery, there can be no doubt about it.
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | ...oh, strat...I've watched investigations into Wal Mart and how the products end up on the shelves...not only to they pit other countries against each other in bidding wars for labor, but then they pit the workers against each other to drive costs down even more...it's very sad...and it's all legal in these countries because their governments don't care how they get the work just so long as they get it...I've watched people get beat, attack each other, fired because someone walks in the door and says they can work for 5¢ less a day...it's dehumanizing...but you'll never see any of that in a Wal Mart ad...and this is just one example, I'm not even getting into 'sweat shops'...ppl providing cheap labor to work off debts in exchange for work visa's...you won't see that legally happening in our borders!!!...and those that do face harsh penalties, jail time, deportation if applicable...this is a crux to free trade...America(n) (policy) can't and won't accept that, and 'her' ppl find it a tragedy...this way of doing business is why I claim an un-even playing field (among others)!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I sure can say it, and it wouldnt be the first time I did it in here. We get back to the capitalist system, and its implementation on a global level, especialy in a very unevenly developed world.
Now, what you probably mean is that Wal-Mart doesnt have anything "made in USA" on its shelves - but the companies that produce it are American. 1$ a week stuff - just like you said yourself. Much the same here. I would bet my life that the computer Im using right now was made somewhere in Southeast Asia. Screw the quality of life - the bosses dont care about it. They never worked a day themselves, never had to live with a limited amount of basic neccesities... They dont understand, and if they did they probably wouldnt give a shit anyway. (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM)
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ronhartsell wrote: |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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Edited at: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:04:52 AM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 5:11:03 AM | |
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Well, thats how it is. Not just in sweatshops and third world countries. Thats how labour markets work. The person that is prepared to work the longest hours, for the smallest possible wage, with minimum allowed rights... Gets the job. The only difference between us (as in the "developed world") and them (as in the "developing world") is that we have a more organised labour movement (and in our case it is the legacy of socialism), and laws that guarantee certain minimums and maximums. The employer cannot give you less than the minimal wage. He cannot force you to work longer than the law says. The principal is the same as in sweatshops, tho, only they dont have any law-enforced bottom lines. There the bottom line is bare survival.
And quite frankly... If the choice is slavery or playing on an uneven field, I choose the uneven field. And in any case, free trade as it is applied today, leads to slavery, there can be no doubt about it.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:52:50 AM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | ...oh, strat...I've watched investigations into Wal Mart and how the products end up on the shelves...not only to they pit other countries against each other in bidding wars for labor, but then they pit the workers against each other to drive costs down even more...it's very sad...and it's all legal in these countries because their governments don't care how they get the work just so long as they get it...I've watched people get beat, attack each other, fired because someone walks in the door and says they can work for 5¢ less a day...it's dehumanizing...but you'll never see any of that in a Wal Mart ad...and this is just one example, I'm not even getting into 'sweat shops'...ppl providing cheap labor to work off debts in exchange for work visa's...you won't see that legally happening in our borders!!!...and those that do face harsh penalties, jail time, deportation if applicable...this is a crux to free trade...America(n) (policy) can't and won't accept that, and 'her' ppl find it a tragedy...this way of doing business is why I claim an un-even playing field (among others)!!
| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I sure can say it, and it wouldnt be the first time I did it in here. We get back to the capitalist system, and its implementation on a global level, especialy in a very unevenly developed world.
Now, what you probably mean is that Wal-Mart doesnt have anything "made in USA" on its shelves - but the companies that produce it are American. 1$ a week stuff - just like you said yourself. Much the same here. I would bet my life that the computer Im using right now was made somewhere in Southeast Asia. Screw the quality of life - the bosses dont care about it. They never worked a day themselves, never had to live with a limited amount of basic neccesities... They dont understand, and if they did they probably wouldnt give a shit anyway. (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM)
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ronhartsell wrote: |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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Edited at: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:04:52 AM |
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| [ron h] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:52:50 AM | |
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...oh, strat...I've watched investigations into Wal Mart and how the products end up on the shelves...not only to they pit other countries against each other in bidding wars for labor, but then they pit the workers against each other to drive costs down even more...it's very sad...and it's all legal in these countries because their governments don't care how they get the work just so long as they get it...I've watched people get beat, attack each other, fired because someone walks in the door and says they can work for 5¢ less a day...it's dehumanizing...but you'll never see any of that in a Wal Mart ad...and this is just one example, I'm not even getting into 'sweat shops'...ppl providing cheap labor to work off debts in exchange for work visa's...you won't see that legally happening in our borders!!!...and those that do face harsh penalties, jail time, deportation if applicable...this is a crux to free trade...America(n) (policy) can't and won't accept that, and 'her' ppl find it a tragedy...this way of doing business is why I claim an un-even playing field (among others)!!
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:01:52 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | I sure can say it, and it wouldnt be the first time I did it in here. We get back to the capitalist system, and its implementation on a global level, especialy in a very unevenly developed world.
Now, what you probably mean is that Wal-Mart doesnt have anything "made in USA" on its shelves - but the companies that produce it are American. 1$ a week stuff - just like you said yourself. Much the same here. I would bet my life that the computer Im using right now was made somewhere in Southeast Asia. Screw the quality of life - the bosses dont care about it. They never worked a day themselves, never had to live with a limited amount of basic neccesities... They dont understand, and if they did they probably wouldnt give a shit anyway. (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM)
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ronhartsell wrote: |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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Edited at: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:04:52 AM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:01:52 AM | |
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I sure can say it, and it wouldnt be the first time I did it in here. We get back to the capitalist system, and its implementation on a global level, especialy in a very unevenly developed world.
Now, what you probably mean is that Wal-Mart doesnt have anything "made in USA" on its shelves - but the companies that produce it are American. 1$ a week stuff - just like you said yourself. Much the same here. I would bet my life that the computer Im using right now was made somewhere in Southeast Asia. Screw the quality of life - the bosses dont care about it. They never worked a day themselves, never had to live with a limited amount of basic neccesities... They dont understand, and if they did they probably wouldnt give a shit anyway. [Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM)
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ronhartsell wrote: |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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Edited at: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 4:04:52 AM |
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| [ron h] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 3:45:55 AM | |
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...can anyone say 'corporate greed'??...and it is without boundaries or nationality, it's what happens in 'free' trade...the rich get richer, no matter what the cost...look at Wal Mart, owned and operated by Americans, but you'd be hard pressed to find anything American made on the shelves...a lot of it is the cheapest sh*t you'll find, but it costs nothing to put it on the shelves, and we've been dealing with this for years...why do you think companies outsource??, so they can get away with paying $1 a week in wages...wtf is that??...where's the quality of life??
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by _strat_ from Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:41:13 AM)| | | _strat_ wrote: | | Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM
Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:41:13 AM | |
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Well, I thought it was directed at me, since I raised a voice against the US economy. In any case, if PK1990 is reading, then I will be declared an America hatin`, freedom loathin`, terrorist loathin` liberal sissy by default.
Ok, down to business. You may not care for the effects of American policies outside of the US, and you may think that it is just fine, and that you guys are helping out more than you are hurting. Bullshit. You know, markets are free, but that doesnt mean that people are too. We are pretty new to the game, admitedly. Us, the rest of former Yugoslavia, and the Warsaw pact had a very closed economy 20 years ago. But as soon as it opened, we were stormed by western companies, who came here with cheaper products (can you say outsourcing?), that were advertised wildly (and still are), and ours could not compete - hence why so many of east European companies were obliterated in the 90s. Or, whenever western companies (American or otherwise) saw competition there, they bought a company and simply closed it. That way of making money certainly is bad, wheter you care for it or not. And thats the way how the west became rich. Economic colonisation. No charity can ever outweight that. Not to mention that we buy your products, but dont recieve charity. Again, the "rest of the world" is not just some place - its many places, with different relations with you guys.
Now, plenty of morality in there... You may not care for it, but there it is. You need us way more than we need you.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Monday, February 02, 2009 5:07:00 PM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM
Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
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| [_strat_] Tuesday, February 03, 2009 2:14:51 AM | |
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In case of US vs. China, there cant really be a winner. The US has the technology and the experience, China has numbers and an almost ant-like mentality. And both have nukes. Once China starts getting out of its borders, and acting the same way the US does (a matter of time, imo) we will have a new cold war. Pity, this time we are already choosing sides, instead of being nice and neutral like we were the last time.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, February 02, 2009 10:29:45 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | my point wasnt actualy about america, it was protectionist trade policies. I put forth that they hurt the country seeking protection just as much as those they trade with. long term, to be successfull, you need more successfull partners. is it better to get half a 8 inch pizza or a quarter of a 16 inch pizza. now remember your geometry.
BTW, do you think your armed forces could take down china if push came to shove? you could nuke eachother into oblivion, but thats lose lose. could you win?
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there. |
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| [Head banger] Monday, February 02, 2009 10:29:45 PM | |
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my point wasnt actualy about america, it was protectionist trade policies. I put forth that they hurt the country seeking protection just as much as those they trade with. long term, to be successfull, you need more successfull partners. is it better to get half a 8 inch pizza or a quarter of a 16 inch pizza. now remember your geometry.
BTW, do you think your armed forces could take down china if push came to shove? you could nuke eachother into oblivion, but thats lose lose. could you win?
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Monday, February 02, 2009 10:56:09 AM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there. |
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| [Soylentgreen4u] Monday, February 02, 2009 10:23:10 PM | |
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NO DRILLING IN THE ARCTIC! AND NO KILLING MOOSE...I'M AN ENVIRONMENTALIST AND....
"I AM CANADIAN"...STAY OUT OF MY FOREST...AND WHO TOOK MY BEER...EH?...
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Head banger from Monday, February 02, 2009 10:15:54 PM)| | | Head banger wrote: | | oil, come on. stop all imports and by the end of the next winter olympics your walking. sure you have oil, in the arctic wildlife reserve, but how to get it. forget the environmentalists, if they all blesses it, drill for it. how will you get it home? build a pipe to valdez? look at a map.
build a pipe to chicago, but wait. that minor insignificant CANADA is in the way.
| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well my dear, the US gives out BILLIONS in aid to other countries every year. It is a big source of contention here since there are many here who feel we should "take care of our own" rather than help other countries. I do not have exact figures (dollars) for you because that is really not the point.
As for oil, we buy it so that we can keep ours in reserve and we have evironmentalists that scream about drilling. That in itself is somewhat confusing and I do not have answers to everything. I can only say that IF we had to, we could survive without oil from other countries. THAT was really the point.
I think I should re-phrase my "hater" comment. I am not saying that ANY of you (my friends) are American Haters!!! I wish I had not used that phrase!! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not expect you guys to "like" our policies or politics. I would not ask that you do!! I am trying to say that we are still the biggest, baddest gorilla in the jungle and , despite our current financial condition, we will remain so.
| | | adrianaec_88 wrote: | | Ok I thought of not saying nothing at all about your comments Freeze but I couldn't help it....
"We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people" .... "This country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty"ok then why are you Venezuela's main oil buyer?.... and btw why did USA started the war against Iraq if you had plenty of it? ....oh right.... to remove Saddam Husein from the government and give freedom to the Iraq people??? Yes, that's right they sure live much better now... yep, no way I'll buy that...
I have to make this clear I'm not an "american hater" as you say, if you don't like it's foreign policy doesn't mean that you hate american people or it's culture or nothing like that ok?
And Freeze before saying anything about it coulld you explain me this?" America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact" charuty? You're really refering to that?
(Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Monday, February 02, 2009 5:07:00 PM)
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:33:53 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, February 02, 2009 10:15:54 PM | |
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oil, come on. stop all imports and by the end of the next winter olympics your walking. sure you have oil, in the arctic wildlife reserve, but how to get it. forget the environmentalists, if they all blesses it, drill for it. how will you get it home? build a pipe to valdez? look at a map.
build a pipe to chicago, but wait. that minor insignificant CANADA is in the way.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Monday, February 02, 2009 5:50:46 PM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Well my dear, the US gives out BILLIONS in aid to other countries every year. It is a big source of contention here since there are many here who feel we should "take care of our own" rather than help other countries. I do not have exact figures (dollars) for you because that is really not the point.
As for oil, we buy it so that we can keep ours in reserve and we have evironmentalists that scream about drilling. That in itself is somewhat confusing and I do not have answers to everything. I can only say that IF we had to, we could survive without oil from other countries. THAT was really the point.
I think I should re-phrase my "hater" comment. I am not saying that ANY of you (my friends) are American Haters!!! I wish I had not used that phrase!! HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I do not expect you guys to "like" our policies or politics. I would not ask that you do!! I am trying to say that we are still the biggest, baddest gorilla in the jungle and , despite our current financial condition, we will remain so.
| | | adrianaec_88 wrote: | | Ok I thought of not saying nothing at all about your comments Freeze but I couldn't help it....
"We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people" .... "This country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty"ok then why are you Venezuela's main oil buyer?.... and btw why did USA started the war against Iraq if you had plenty of it? ....oh right.... to remove Saddam Husein from the government and give freedom to the Iraq people??? Yes, that's right they sure live much better now... yep, no way I'll buy that...
I have to make this clear I'm not an "american hater" as you say, if you don't like it's foreign policy doesn't mean that you hate american people or it's culture or nothing like that ok?
And Freeze before saying anything about it coulld you explain me this?" America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact" charuty? You're really refering to that?
(Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Monday, February 02, 2009 5:07:00 PM)
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I knew it!! I knew I could count on you!! HAHAHAHAA!!! OK, debate, you say? That will be fine.
I do not refer to you personally as a "hater". In fact, I would be quite surprised if you actually "hate" anyone. You are too smart a fellow for that nonsense (you too, Soy!) .As for "arguments", I have no need for any as I am not looking to argue my feelings. There is NO debate. If you carry a personal distaste for politicians, I really cannot see how that is anything special. It is oh so fashionable to declare one's distaste for politicians. I see them as a functioning part of our world. They are what they are and I certainly cannot change that. Neither can you. For what it is worth, I do not personally know any politicians so I have no particular affinity for them, either.
As for you saying anything regarding business and trade, you are entitled to your opinion. I never said I have a problem with YOU. That would be silly. I speak of this ridiculous notion (promoted by a small but vocal group) that the US is somehow taking advantage of unsuspecting, Third World nations and forcing our evil products and policies upon them. Yeah, Yeah..OK. As you so eloquently pointed out, markets are open. FREE trade! Making money is NOT a bad thing, man! If we turn a profit, that is GREAT! That is the WHOLE idea! If we see a market wherein we can make a profit, we target that market. Smart business, I say. If you don't like it, don't buy it. Simple enough. Global colonization?!?!? HA!!!! Yeah, OK.
As for charity, you can deny it if you wish but the US sends aid to many, many "poor" countries. It is what we do and not just when a friggin tidal wave hits. We are one of the most "giving" nations on the planet. As for war..well, it is what it is. Yes, we bomb enemies. And we do it well. I believe we are 12 and 1...or is it 11 and 2?? ...not bad. HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (sorry)
As for "envy". I do not recall saying that. I am sure there are a lot of countries with a GREAT economy and lifestyle. Equally, there are a lot of poor countries and they get HAND OUTS. I do know this, if there was a way for the US to be "shut out" of the trade world, YES! It would initially have an effect on our economy..AND me. What I meant by my comments was, this country has AMPLE resources. We could survive just fine without the rest of the world and that includes OIL! We have plenty.
(Quoting Message by _strat_ from Monday, February 02, 2009 4:44:29 PM)
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_strat_ wrote: |
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Ok,... Im going to assume that you were serious... In which case I suggest that you sit back, read what you wrote and think. You are not dumb. I dont know how you can come to such conclusions as you did, but lets clear up certain things. (Oh, Im going to put my text in red, and the quoted in white - just to avoid confusion).
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash
You might as well say that that refers to me. Everyone knows it does. In any case, lets clear up this "America-Hater" bullshit, since I see that it is very popular with American conservatives, when they are out of arguments. You oppose American policies - you hate America.
What would I hate about America? The land? The mountains, forests, coasts, soil... Why? The people? Why? Most of them havent done anything to me. That means that I would have to hate Tim, Guido, Darth, Bev... You! I dont, you know that! Now, American policies, and the people that make and carry out those policies... Politicians... That would be closer to the truth. Businessmen? The big ones? Certainly.
Point: you cannot think of a country as you would think of an individual person. There is so much more to it.
forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s!
I never said or claimed that your politicians or businessmen somehow force us into trading with you. Markets are open. Companies trade. It is the way of capitalism. And it benefits you guys much more than it does us. Or, at least, it benefits your corporations. I can hardly Imagine that you personaly have any direct gain from it. Lets get another thing straight: the US companies are not trading with us because of charity or solidarity. They found a new market, and nations that are not used to living in capitalism. And they made billions. They sell their products to us. Sell, not give. And they dont sell at a loss, no way. They sell because they make profit of us. Ok. Thats the way of it, and it seems that there isnt a thing we can do right now to rectify it.
Do not for one minute think that we cant do without you, however. "We" meaning the rest of the world here. If tomorow all American products disapear from our markets... We will buy others. What will you do? What will your companies do, when they will run out of money? Remember... The worlds population is 6 billion. The American is about 300 milion. Think how the market would shrink for your companies. You (and this time I mean "you" as you, the individual) would feel it. You would feel it a lot. Because even tho it is the richest, the USA is still just one country, among hundreds of others. And you do need the rest of the world. If you want to keep up with your current lifestyle, at least. America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact.
Now, that, and the "handout" thingy. I dont know for many other countries, but we never recieved ANY handouts from the US. Yet we trade with you. We buy American stuff. Right now I have Lewis jeans on me (made in Croatia - but the profit went to the USA). And I dont actualy mind it all that much. Sure, they are not the best jeans that money can buy, but I like them well enough. Even tho the profit made from those jeans went to the USA. You see... I bought them, paid for them, and because of that, a certain amount of money went to the USA, where a certain amount of tax was paid to your government, that used that tax on something that may just well be for you. Now... Can you say "thank you"? And, knowing what wages are like in Croatia, Id say that quite a large part of the money I paid for the jeans went to the USA. Thats how it goes. And there are literary billions of euros made that way, all around the world from people who buy American goods.
And lets be clear on another thing as well - bombing a country does NOT count as a gift of weapons! And no matter how much America helps other countries - people who have suffered from American foreign policy have every right in the world to hate whatever they percieve as the USA. And please... PLEASE... What handouts? Aid when theres an earthquake somewhere? How does that equal out the economic colonisation of the rest of the world?
And please, explain... Why in the world do you think we envy you?!?! Envy you what? Your freedom? I actualy believe that I have more freedom here than you do there.
Infact, this attitude in your post is childish. "I dont need you! I dont need ANYONE!!!" Well, guess what... You do.
In any case, I went on about it.. And I think I have all points covered. Im sure that I will hear more from you... Just remember: no need to pop blood vessels, and Im not upset or anything. Just debate.
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Deep Freeze wrote: |
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OK. I am going to take a chance and assume that I have enough "friends" here to say somethings without being cyber-disemboweled...
I am SO sick of all the "America-Haters" talking trash about how the big, bad United States is SO mean and forces all these poor, unsuspecting countries to trade with us and genuflect and all this other b.s! WHATEVER!! Let's get something straight right here and now; we don't NEED anyone else!! NO ONE! We can survive quite nicely without the trade of ANY other country. We are kind enough to ship good and services and AID to others and accept some of the same in return. This imaginary (yes I said imaginary) belief that we would crumble without the "rest of the world" or that we somehow "man handle" these poor little countires into accepting our "inferior" products is just plain BULLSH%$ !!!!!!!!
America helps FAR more than she hurts and that is a fact. We would have NO problem slamming our doors to the rest of the world and moving along just fine but for the fact that the REST of the WORLD needs US!!!!!!! That's right! I said it!! We are the RICHEST, most POWERFUL nation on earth and that just galls some people. Well, too fu%&@$% bad!!!!!!!! I have yet to see one of these poor, oppressed and disadvantaged countries refuse an American hand out! And they won't. because they NEED us........ Just like they NEED our trade. The American worker puts out a quality product and we can compete with ANYONE, ANYWHERE! So there.
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Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:09:30 PM Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:15:31 PM |
Edited at: Monday, February 02, 2009 5:33:53 PM |
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| [Head banger] Monday, February 02, 2009 10:06:30 PM | |
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wait, did you sugest politicians and governments could learn? and that they do the ocasional thing right? realy. I missed that day.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by ronhartsell from Monday, February 02, 2009 8:03:00 PM)| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | ...you are absolutely correct...ya know, it wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to slash military spending, bring everyone home (whether in conflict or not) and infuse the savings back into us...I don't even want to get going on the pharmacuticals, you wanna talk about an industry in need of reform???...this is definately one arena that I wish we could clean up, it is abusrd and perposterous...oh, we have our faults, no doubt about it, but I don't think we come close to cornering the market on it!!!...hey, here's a novel idea...why don't we all learn from each other??...all of our respective countries do something right...gee, what's the worse that could happen??
| | | MG_Metalgoddess wrote: | | Yes I hear you, on the issues.. Agriculture, for some countries.. But the countries that the USA needs to stay on a even trading keel with doesnt need those services from them... Such as Canada, and now china....
Medial research is paid for by the hard working people, in the USA.. And unfortunatley alot of money is wasted, with meaningless gifts, and right offs for doctors, when your health insurance could be more affordable.. for the middle class.. ( I worked in the medical field for 15 years)
Here in Canada they do-not allow drug compies to advertise.. It is a medical decision for you and your docotor to discuss as in many other countries.. which is why people can get their medications cheaper, than in the US.
I do believe that nations should help one-another out.. ect.... For world peace sake if anything.. Money, food. ect..
But do-not ever sacrifice so much that your ownn people suffer, do to greed, and corporate driven enterprises..
MG~
| | | ronhartsell wrote: | | Well, people are gonna feel how they feel...but I do take issue that America doesn't have anything to offer anymore...
...sure we do, just not in the old coventional ways...
...how about support and the many forms it comes in
-agriculture
-military/protection (how many foreign cities flourish because of our installations, and the numbers of ppl that are employed??)
-$$ for medical research
-space programs
-advanced education (in all sorts of areas)
-technology
...this is a random list off the top of my head, but in reality there are so many more...and this list is nothing to sneeze at, we're talking global ramifications if these services were no longer provided...how many small countries would be under attack if we weren't 'Big Brother'??...YES, I do believe our military is (and has been) a marketable commodity...it's HUGE business!!
...but I, as an American, more than anything, want peace, a sense of brother/sisterhood among us all...where issues like these never become issues...I don't know if that will ever happen...but I hope...
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| [Head banger] Monday, February 02, 2009 10:04:42 PM | |
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we are bigger, you are badder, and if you come up here and kill yourself a moose, you will find what stinks when cleaning it.
the french would screw up a wet dream!!!
we had them and kicked their asses.
[Show/Hide Quoted Message] (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Monday, February 02, 2009 8:52:29 PM)| | | Deep Freeze wrote: | | Dippity Doo...???? BWWAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!!! Oh MAN!!! Soy, apart from you, me and maybe guido, do you think anyone here even knows what that is??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!!!! TOO funny!!!
Anyway, NO NO NO NO NO!!!!! Wrong! WE are bigger! WE are badder and YOU stink!! Quiet or we will annex your silly country and let the French run it...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!! Pass the moose meat, please! HAAAAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!!!!
OK, enough of this! I simply MUST get in the shower and then get some warm milk and a glass of Ensure......nighty night!! |
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