Alright Darth first let’s go back to the beginning and why we are here in the first place. I gave my honest opinion about the cd, I didn't call anyone names, I didn't say you was stupid if you like this cd, I didn't bring anyone in to it. I've never talked to you or Deep before in my life, I have no idea who you are, I don't know what kind of person you are, and I've never read any of your post. So then I get attacked by the two of you and neither of you know anything about me, yet you call me names and tell lies and half truths about me, even up to today you called me and "arrogant S.O.B" and it's completely unwarranted as I have been defending myself from your attacks since your first response to me.

As for my "HONEST" review of the cd, I held nothing back because I'm tired of the same old crap this band has been putting out since Turbo with the exception of Painkiller. I said I hate Judas Priest because at this point I do; I hate them because they make it hard for me to continue to be fan. I'm sick of the thrash metal cd’s and songs, I'm sick of the down right crappy music, see Ram It Down. I know every cd can't be Screaming for Vengeance, but damn dude this crap they've been putting out is getting old. I'm tired of hearing Glenn play solo's that all sound the same, they're all fast, noodley, and void of any feeling. I hate that they use processors instead of real amps, their guitar tone is nothing like it used to be, in fact its worse then it's ever been. I hate it when I hear or read an interview and they say things like "The Metal Community," "The Kids," I'm forty freakin' years old I'm not a kid, and I don’t think of music in terms of metal being this separate entity that people who like Judas Priest listen to nothing but heavy metal.  I have a very diverse taste in music and I don’t want to be included in this alternative universe. This isn’t the 80’s when Heavy Metal was considered the devils music, heck it has its own category at the music awards thanks to Metallica.

Then they come out with this conceptual album, if you like it that's fine with me but I don't. I don't want to like it, I want to listen to music with feeling and energy, fist pumping head banging actual music, not some freakin' "Metal Opera" that I have to listen to in the dark 3 or 4 times by myself before I "Understand" what they're trying to do. When I was 15 I probably would have liked this cd, I would have thought of it as some mysterious puzzle that I had to decode. That's why I used the phrase, "Mush Brained Adolescences," at 15 that's pretty much what you are. Being 40 years old I look at it as a piece of crap and a waste of time. Who gives a freak about Nostradamus anyway? Why in the heck is it about Nostradamus? He's as irrelevant as the cold war.

I was listening to Halfords solo stuff, War of Words, and Resurrection, those 2 cd's are better then anything Priest has put out since Defenders of the Faith, with the exception of Painkiller. Crucible is another great cd, I listen to that stuff and then I hear Nostradamus and I ask myself, why am I still a fan of this band? I've been listening to Priest since 1978 when I first heard Green Manalishi, but since Turbo came out I have been less and less a fan. When Painkiller came out it was a breath of fresh air, I thought to myself finally a cd that I'm proud to listen to, then the whole thing with Rob leaving the band and the way in which they handled it, Glenn calling Tim the best singer Priest ever had etc. etc. it was a joke. I'm sure you've heard a band call "Airborne," those guys are kicking ass, they're the complete package. Their songs kick ass, their actually entertaining to listen to, and its actual music. Their guitar tone is to die for, the guitar work is so bluesy and soulful, it's the kind of music you have on while your hanging with your buddies and or your girl while your drinking a couple of beers shooting some pool or whatever. Nostradamus doesn't offer that so I'm not interested in Nostradamus.

As for Deep and his physical condition, like I said I don't know they guy, I've never read any of his post, I don't know what kind of person he is. But like with you I have been defending myself since he first responded to my post. I never attacked him he attacks me by calling me names and suggesting to other people that my opinion was irrelevant because he didn't agree with it. I don't wish bad things on anyone and I'll keep him in my prayers, but being disabled isn't a free pass, I won't hesitate to defend myself.

		Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote:
		Okay Rob, so let's talk about your "honest opinion" of the new CD.  It's one thing to have an opinion and not like a release.  That's not what our problem is.  The problem is that you claim to be a Judas Priest fan for x amount of years, yet you clearly state that in your first post on this thread, that you hate Judas Priest for this CD.   Frankly, even if I didn't like a CD, I wouldn't go as far as to hate a band for it.  You might as well not even be a fan.  Seriously, I mean your original diatribe (hard to call it an opinion since you rambled on so incessantly when your point was well made in your first post) raised your level of discourse (to a whole lot of people here) to the point where a casual observer would probably wonder why you're even a fan at all. If you don't like the CD...hey, that's fine.  That's your opinion.  The hate thing for a band you supposedly are a fan of is clearly stupid at best though.  Maybe a clarification of your original comment is needed since we've possibly misunderstood you?   BTW, you're a liberal, aren't you?      Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote: Wow, Rob!  You really are an ignorant s.o.b., aren't you?  First off, since you ignored Freeze, let me explain a few things that you have also ignored in the 5 yrs you've been a member of this site: 1. Freeze is disabled.  There is a Deep Freeze Well Wishers Thread that you might want to take the time to read through at your lesuire to gain some measure of understanding. 2. Freeze is older than you by a few years.  Sorry, but I don't remember his exact age.  Perhaps you can go ask him yourself in PM? 3. Lastly, DF is without a doubt, a staunch conservative (as am I btw).   As for my font size, if you don't like it, oh well.  Back to work for me!      Rob Ward wrote: Your arrogance is only topped by your lack of manners; let’s talk up bringing shall we? You’re a blithering idiot to say the least, and you act like you’re above everyone else. I gave my honest opinion about Judas Priest latest cd, you spout off and call me stupid amongst other things, you attacked me I didn't attack you. Your clearly a person that thinks they are the smartest in the room which is a clear indicator to me that you are in fact a liberal, you talk down to people that you don't agree with and you haven't the mannerism to debate anything, another clear indicator of a liberal. You want to judge me by the amount of friends I have on this board, I have been a member of this board for 5 years and only have 1 friend and counting this post a total of 66 posts. That's an indicator that I actually have a real life and only post when I feel that it's relevant to the band. You on the other hand have been a member for 3 years and yet you have well over 15,000 post and you’re being ignored by 21 people, that's an indicator to me that you have no life to speak of, that's about 13 post a day. Does your mom know your on your computer that much? I mean I'm sure you don't spend all of your internet time on the Judas Priest board, get a job man and do something with your life... Count me as #22 on your ignore list, your a waste of time and I'll need to reevaluate myself because I find very disturbing that I would actually have something in common with loser like you....      Deep Freeze wrote: At the risk of GREAT personal annoyance, I will respond to you again. Liberal?!?!? ME???? My good, YOUNG, man!...I am so conservative I make YOU look like a "New Dealer"! HA!!!!!!!!!!!  Global Warming???HAHAHAHAA!! Oh my! I should probably thank you for the laugh. I did need one! I have an upset stomach from the spotted owl I had for breakfast.  Incredible! You are a mere 40 years old, yet you have managed to become so tremendously arrogant in that short period!?!?! Ah well, there is certainly no accounting for upbringing. I fear we have let this spiral out of control. I stand by my opinion of you and your actions. If you choose to further debate, you can do so with yourself, or perhaps Darth would like a go at you.. You are condemned by your own words, not mine. I cannot imagine ANY scenario in which a person could go to a particular band's OFFICIAL website and declare, in their own words, that they "hate" them, and then not expect retribution. Worse yet, the faked indignance is really beneath a man of your alleged " years", is it not? You are "man" enough to say it, you should be "man" enough to admit it. But again, upbringing. Finally, I expect that you will respond to me. It is the nature of the guilty to profess their innocence. As you no doubt have heard before, jails are full of innocent people. In any event, you are free to continue to do and say whatever you wish. I am sure you and your one friend will enjoy your time here with us. You must be incredibly proud.      Rob Ward wrote: Gee Deep, however did I come to that conclusion? Maybe this will refresh your memory; "I think it is more than obvious that Mr. Ward is still craving attention. If you recall, he made inflammatory remarks many weeks ago and was called out on it then as well. This is not a person that anyone should consider a valid source of musical knowledge. We are not talking the R&D man at Sony here, people! This is a person that is simply looking for a reaction, and it appears there are many that are more than willing to oblige." Or how about this part? "Look, if the guy does not like the album, fine. He has every right to his opinion! I can accept that there are probably many more just like him in this world. However, you will note that most of them do not come here to the official site and bash on the Band. Clearly, we have an attention seeker on our hands. Worse yet, we are lending him credence by responding!" Or how about this part when you call me stupid? I know there are many of you that have been members of this site long enough to have seen this schtick more than once. I can remember some that were actually intelligent and presented an argument worthy of debate. I fear that is not the case with young Mr. Ward. Further discussion or counter-argument with this individual is the mental equivalent of debate with an Australian bushman regarding the intricasies of compound interest and bond investment. It is simply a waste of your time! Why is it that you prefer for me to ignore you, but you couldn't find the restraint to do it yourself in the first place? Are you above being responded to? Let me guess you’re a liberal aren't you? BTW, I'm 40 years old; you can save your speeches for your global warming POW WOW, and lets see the inflammatory remarks I made a few weeks ago.    (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Friday, June 13, 2008 10:40:10 AM)   Deep Freeze wrote:   Indeed. I fail to see how it is that you can even suggest that I have "attacked" you or anyone else for that matter. In fact, I clearly stated that you are entitled to your opinion of the new album, did I not? I could not care less if you have a "reaction" to me or not. I would quite prefer you ignore me. I see that you have been here five years and yet you have ONE friend?? It is no surprise. I stand by my previous comments. Your remarks were NOT of a constructive nature but rather, they were meant to cause discord;  at this point and time I can honestly say I hate Judas Priest.  THAT is a musical opinion??? Perhaps you should spend a bit more time in class (or should have) to get a clearer understanding of the words we use in the English language? By any standard, you could certainly use a lesson or two in manners. I do not believe that it was I who asked for you to "leave". I certainly do not care if you are here or you are not.  As I have mentioned before, it is not up to me and your ilk have come and gone so many times I have lost count. But, when one comes to an OFFICIAL site and expresses "hate" for the site's subject, I tend to believe it is not about having an opinion or exercising ones right to speech. It is an overt attempt to grab attention or agitate. (I will give you a moment to look those up as well) Say what you will. You have that right. But there is no need to be a liar in addition to being a boor.      Rob Ward wrote:   Deep, I'm glad you’re the one everyone needs to look for to figure out who's who on the board. I don't do anything for a reaction; I posted what I thought about the cd and the singles that was previously released. It is you and Darth and a couple of others that attack someone for giving their honest opinion about the cd, it is you and they that try for a reaction. I never once called anyone a name or made a derogatory comment to or about anyone. I gave my honest opinion and because it wasn't a positive cool aid drinking opinion I am attacked for it. I don't care what Judas Priest is trying to achieve with this cd, it sucks. I am one that likes music that is inspiring and entertaining, nothing in this cd is entertaining. I hate the guitar sound, I hate the guitar work, and I hate all the slow dragged out songs that sounds like the one before it. I don't like the vocals, it's a lame attempt at opera, and they are completely out of place. I don't like the cd and I don't need to leave the board because you or anyone else doesn't like what I say. If you and Darth can't handle what people say then it is you and he that needs to leave. I am now, always have been, and always will be a Judas Priest fan, but I hate them for recording this cd and few others. Just because you write something that so completely different then anything anyone else has ever done, doesn't automatically make it something great. IMO they failed with this cd, if you or anyone else can't handle my opinion then TFB!      Deep Freeze wrote:   I think it is more than obvious that Mr. Ward is still craving attention. If you recall, he made inflammatory remarks many weeks ago and was called out on it then as well. This is not a person that anyone should consider a valid source of musical knowledge. We are not talking the R&D man at Sony here, people! This is a person that is simply looking for a reaction, and it appears there are many that are more than willing to oblige. Look, if the guy does not like the album, fine. He has every right to his opinion! I can accept that there are probably many more just like him in this world. However, you will note that most of them do not come here to the official site and bash on the Band. Clearly, we have an attention seeker on our hands. Worse yet, we are lending him credence by responding! I know there are many of you that have been members of this site long enough to have seen this schtick more than once. I can remember some that were actually intelligent and presented an argument worthy of debate. I fear that is not the case with young Mr. Ward. Further discussion or counter-argument with this individual is the mental equivalent of debate with an Australian bushman regarding the intricasies of compound interest and bond investment. It is simply a waste of your time! Edited at: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:48:19 PM Edited at: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:51:50 PM Edited at: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:52:45 PM

Alright Darth first let’s go back to the beginning and why we are here in the first place. I gave my honest opinion about the cd, I didn't call anyone names, I didn't say you was stupid if you like this cd, I didn't bring anyone in to it. I've never talked to you or Deep before in my life, I have no idea who you are, I don't know what kind of person you are, and I've never read any of your post. So then I get attacked by the two of you and neither of you know anything about me, yet you call me names and tell lies and half truths about me, even up to today you called me and "arrogant S.O.B" and it's completely unwarranted as I have been defending myself from your attacks since your first response to me.

As for my "HONEST" review of the cd, I held nothing back because I'm tired of the same old crap this band has been putting out since Turbo with the exception of Painkiller. I said I hate Judas Priest because at this point I do; I hate them because they make it hard for me to continue to be fan. I'm sick of the thrash metal cd’s and songs, I'm sick of the down right crappy music, see Ram It Down. I know every cd can't be Screaming for Vengeance, but damn dude this crap they've been putting out is getting old. I'm tired of hearing Glenn play solo's that all sound the same, they're all fast, noodley, and void of any feeling. I hate that they use processors instead of real amps, their guitar tone is nothing like it used to be, in fact its worse then it's ever been. I hate it when I hear or read an interview and they say things like "The Metal Community," "The Kids," I'm forty freakin' years old I'm not a kid, and I don’t think of music in terms of metal being this separate entity that people who like Judas Priest listen to nothing but heavy metal.  I have a very diverse taste in music and I don’t want to be included in this alternative universe. This isn’t the 80’s when Heavy Metal was considered the devils music, heck it has its own category at the music awards thanks to Metallica.

Then they come out with this conceptual album, if you like it that's fine with me but I don't. I don't want to like it, I want to listen to music with feeling and energy, fist pumping head banging actual music, not some freakin' "Metal Opera" that I have to listen to in the dark 3 or 4 times by myself before I "Understand" what they're trying to do. When I was 15 I probably would have liked this cd, I would have thought of it as some mysterious puzzle that I had to decode. That's why I used the phrase, "Mush Brained Adolescences," at 15 that's pretty much what you are. Being 40 years old I look at it as a piece of crap and a waste of time. Who gives a freak about Nostradamus anyway? Why in the heck is it about Nostradamus? He's as irrelevant as the cold war.

I was listening to Halfords solo stuff, War of Words, and Resurrection, those 2 cd's are better then anything Priest has put out since Defenders of the Faith, with the exception of Painkiller. Crucible is another great cd, I listen to that stuff and then I hear Nostradamus and I ask myself, why am I still a fan of this band? I've been listening to Priest since 1978 when I first heard Green Manalishi, but since Turbo came out I have been less and less a fan. When Painkiller came out it was a breath of fresh air, I thought to myself finally a cd that I'm proud to listen to, then the whole thing with Rob leaving the band and the way in which they handled it, Glenn calling Tim the best singer Priest ever had etc. etc. it was a joke. I'm sure you've heard a band call "Airborne," those guys are kicking ass, they're the complete package. Their songs kick ass, their actually entertaining to listen to, and its actual music. Their guitar tone is to die for, the guitar work is so bluesy and soulful, it's the kind of music you have on while your hanging with your buddies and or your girl while your drinking a couple of beers shooting some pool or whatever. Nostradamus doesn't offer that so I'm not interested in Nostradamus.

As for Deep and his physical condition, like I said I don't know they guy, I've never read any of his post, I don't know what kind of person he is. But like with you I have been defending myself since he first responded to my post. I never attacked him he attacks me by calling me names and suggesting to other people that my opinion was irrelevant because he didn't agree with it. I don't wish bad things on anyone and I'll keep him in my prayers, but being disabled isn't a free pass, I won't hesitate to defend myself.

		Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote:
		Okay Rob, so let's talk about your "honest opinion" of the new CD.  It's one thing to have an opinion and not like a release.  That's not what our problem is.  The problem is that you claim to be a Judas Priest fan for x amount of years, yet you clearly state that in your first post on this thread, that you hate Judas Priest for this CD.   Frankly, even if I didn't like a CD, I wouldn't go as far as to hate a band for it.  You might as well not even be a fan.  Seriously, I mean your original diatribe (hard to call it an opinion since you rambled on so incessantly when your point was well made in your first post) raised your level of discourse (to a whole lot of people here) to the point where a casual observer would probably wonder why you're even a fan at all. If you don't like the CD...hey, that's fine.  That's your opinion.  The hate thing for a band you supposedly are a fan of is clearly stupid at best though.  Maybe a clarification of your original comment is needed since we've possibly misunderstood you?   BTW, you're a liberal, aren't you?      Darth_Painkiller_0870 wrote: Wow, Rob!  You really are an ignorant s.o.b., aren't you?  First off, since you ignored Freeze, let me explain a few things that you have also ignored in the 5 yrs you've been a member of this site: 1. Freeze is disabled.  There is a Deep Freeze Well Wishers Thread that you might want to take the time to read through at your lesuire to gain some measure of understanding. 2. Freeze is older than you by a few years.  Sorry, but I don't remember his exact age.  Perhaps you can go ask him yourself in PM? 3. Lastly, DF is without a doubt, a staunch conservative (as am I btw).   As for my font size, if you don't like it, oh well.  Back to work for me!      Rob Ward wrote: Your arrogance is only topped by your lack of manners; let’s talk up bringing shall we? You’re a blithering idiot to say the least, and you act like you’re above everyone else. I gave my honest opinion about Judas Priest latest cd, you spout off and call me stupid amongst other things, you attacked me I didn't attack you. Your clearly a person that thinks they are the smartest in the room which is a clear indicator to me that you are in fact a liberal, you talk down to people that you don't agree with and you haven't the mannerism to debate anything, another clear indicator of a liberal. You want to judge me by the amount of friends I have on this board, I have been a member of this board for 5 years and only have 1 friend and counting this post a total of 66 posts. That's an indicator that I actually have a real life and only post when I feel that it's relevant to the band. You on the other hand have been a member for 3 years and yet you have well over 15,000 post and you’re being ignored by 21 people, that's an indicator to me that you have no life to speak of, that's about 13 post a day. Does your mom know your on your computer that much? I mean I'm sure you don't spend all of your internet time on the Judas Priest board, get a job man and do something with your life... Count me as #22 on your ignore list, your a waste of time and I'll need to reevaluate myself because I find very disturbing that I would actually have something in common with loser like you....      Deep Freeze wrote: At the risk of GREAT personal annoyance, I will respond to you again. Liberal?!?!? ME???? My good, YOUNG, man!...I am so conservative I make YOU look like a "New Dealer"! HA!!!!!!!!!!!  Global Warming???HAHAHAHAA!! Oh my! I should probably thank you for the laugh. I did need one! I have an upset stomach from the spotted owl I had for breakfast.  Incredible! You are a mere 40 years old, yet you have managed to become so tremendously arrogant in that short period!?!?! Ah well, there is certainly no accounting for upbringing. I fear we have let this spiral out of control. I stand by my opinion of you and your actions. If you choose to further debate, you can do so with yourself, or perhaps Darth would like a go at you.. You are condemned by your own words, not mine. I cannot imagine ANY scenario in which a person could go to a particular band's OFFICIAL website and declare, in their own words, that they "hate" them, and then not expect retribution. Worse yet, the faked indignance is really beneath a man of your alleged " years", is it not? You are "man" enough to say it, you should be "man" enough to admit it. But again, upbringing. Finally, I expect that you will respond to me. It is the nature of the guilty to profess their innocence. As you no doubt have heard before, jails are full of innocent people. In any event, you are free to continue to do and say whatever you wish. I am sure you and your one friend will enjoy your time here with us. You must be incredibly proud.      Rob Ward wrote: Gee Deep, however did I come to that conclusion? Maybe this will refresh your memory; "I think it is more than obvious that Mr. Ward is still craving attention. If you recall, he made inflammatory remarks many weeks ago and was called out on it then as well. This is not a person that anyone should consider a valid source of musical knowledge. We are not talking the R&D man at Sony here, people! This is a person that is simply looking for a reaction, and it appears there are many that are more than willing to oblige." Or how about this part? "Look, if the guy does not like the album, fine. He has every right to his opinion! I can accept that there are probably many more just like him in this world. However, you will note that most of them do not come here to the official site and bash on the Band. Clearly, we have an attention seeker on our hands. Worse yet, we are lending him credence by responding!" Or how about this part when you call me stupid? I know there are many of you that have been members of this site long enough to have seen this schtick more than once. I can remember some that were actually intelligent and presented an argument worthy of debate. I fear that is not the case with young Mr. Ward. Further discussion or counter-argument with this individual is the mental equivalent of debate with an Australian bushman regarding the intricasies of compound interest and bond investment. It is simply a waste of your time! Why is it that you prefer for me to ignore you, but you couldn't find the restraint to do it yourself in the first place? Are you above being responded to? Let me guess you’re a liberal aren't you? BTW, I'm 40 years old; you can save your speeches for your global warming POW WOW, and lets see the inflammatory remarks I made a few weeks ago.    (Quoting Message by Deep Freeze from Friday, June 13, 2008 10:40:10 AM)   Deep Freeze wrote:   Indeed. I fail to see how it is that you can even suggest that I have "attacked" you or anyone else for that matter. In fact, I clearly stated that you are entitled to your opinion of the new album, did I not? I could not care less if you have a "reaction" to me or not. I would quite prefer you ignore me. I see that you have been here five years and yet you have ONE friend?? It is no surprise. I stand by my previous comments. Your remarks were NOT of a constructive nature but rather, they were meant to cause discord;  at this point and time I can honestly say I hate Judas Priest.  THAT is a musical opinion??? Perhaps you should spend a bit more time in class (or should have) to get a clearer understanding of the words we use in the English language? By any standard, you could certainly use a lesson or two in manners. I do not believe that it was I who asked for you to "leave". I certainly do not care if you are here or you are not.  As I have mentioned before, it is not up to me and your ilk have come and gone so many times I have lost count. But, when one comes to an OFFICIAL site and expresses "hate" for the site's subject, I tend to believe it is not about having an opinion or exercising ones right to speech. It is an overt attempt to grab attention or agitate. (I will give you a moment to look those up as well) Say what you will. You have that right. But there is no need to be a liar in addition to being a boor.      Rob Ward wrote:   Deep, I'm glad you’re the one everyone needs to look for to figure out who's who on the board. I don't do anything for a reaction; I posted what I thought about the cd and the singles that was previously released. It is you and Darth and a couple of others that attack someone for giving their honest opinion about the cd, it is you and they that try for a reaction. I never once called anyone a name or made a derogatory comment to or about anyone. I gave my honest opinion and because it wasn't a positive cool aid drinking opinion I am attacked for it. I don't care what Judas Priest is trying to achieve with this cd, it sucks. I am one that likes music that is inspiring and entertaining, nothing in this cd is entertaining. I hate the guitar sound, I hate the guitar work, and I hate all the slow dragged out songs that sounds like the one before it. I don't like the vocals, it's a lame attempt at opera, and they are completely out of place. I don't like the cd and I don't need to leave the board because you or anyone else doesn't like what I say. If you and Darth can't handle what people say then it is you and he that needs to leave. I am now, always have been, and always will be a Judas Priest fan, but I hate them for recording this cd and few others. Just because you write something that so completely different then anything anyone else has ever done, doesn't automatically make it something great. IMO they failed with this cd, if you or anyone else can't handle my opinion then TFB!      Deep Freeze wrote:   I think it is more than obvious that Mr. Ward is still craving attention. If you recall, he made inflammatory remarks many weeks ago and was called out on it then as well. This is not a person that anyone should consider a valid source of musical knowledge. We are not talking the R&D man at Sony here, people! This is a person that is simply looking for a reaction, and it appears there are many that are more than willing to oblige. Look, if the guy does not like the album, fine. He has every right to his opinion! I can accept that there are probably many more just like him in this world. However, you will note that most of them do not come here to the official site and bash on the Band. Clearly, we have an attention seeker on our hands. Worse yet, we are lending him credence by responding! I know there are many of you that have been members of this site long enough to have seen this schtick more than once. I can remember some that were actually intelligent and presented an argument worthy of debate. I fear that is not the case with young Mr. Ward. Further discussion or counter-argument with this individual is the mental equivalent of debate with an Australian bushman regarding the intricasies of compound interest and bond investment. It is simply a waste of your time! Edited at: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:48:19 PM Edited at: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:51:50 PM Edited at: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:52:45 PM